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Author Topic: My "The Dark Palace" Item System.  (Read 10036 times)

Offline Kva3imoda

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My "The Dark Palace" Item System.
« on: April 05, 2015, 04:43:32 PM »
It's all about my "Dark Palace" mod.

This topic about my point of view on "Items" in general. Let's talk about it.

"Items" is an important part of the gameplay. Creating a good and necessary game items is time-consuming process, so you need a good plan how to organize this part of the gameplay.

Items are closely connected with a playable character and RPG-system.
About my planned RPG system, you can read here : "Dark Palace" - Dungeon crawler. Yup, this is a very old topic.  :D
In recent days, I rethought some things, but generally all the same. Now I plan to use only 50lvls of character and it is connected with my Item system.

My plan.

1. Simplified inventory.

This scheme has significant advantages in the creation of game items.
Let's compare with the standard inventory.



Disadvantages:
a) We have a smaller amount of items (11 vs. 12).
I do not think that does it matter because the amount is still sufficient for customization.

b) Less flexible system for the character appearance. (2 vs. 6)
Well, actually this has pros and cons, it depends on the point of view. I like harmony, and beautiful appearance with "full armor".  :)

Advantages:
a) My scheme is a little bit more logical.
Our character has 6 fingers - so there are 6 rings.

b) Always beautiful appearance! (2 vs. 6)
*look above  ;)

с) We have many "green" items and only 2 "blue" items
It is very convenient because there is no need to configure a Wardrobe in this items.
Like in "blue" items:
Code: [Select]
	[WARDROBE]
<STRING>RACE:HUMAN
<STRING>GENDER:MALE
<STRING>MESH:media/wardrobe/_lvls1_10/berserker_01/hum_berserker_01.mesh
<STRING>TEXTURE:media/wardrobe/_lvls1_10/berserker_01/hu_ber_01_boot.png
<STRING>SET:BOOTSSTANDARD
[/WARDROBE]
As you know, I plan to use a lot of non-standard character models and for me it is very important. In my scheme I need to configure only 2 "blue types" of items (Chestplate(Full Armor) & Helmet).

d) I have only 4 Types of Armor. (4 vs. 9).
This is great for creating game items and work on balance. Big time savings.

e) Most "green" items - is rings!
Yeah, it's really cool. It's incredibly convenient.  :D Convenient for bonuses (you can use any and it would be logical). Has simple icons(you can create dozens like Rainbow Redux by Oats ) and simple name (just a "ring", not "gloves/mittens/gauntlets/handguards"). Simple for the configuration and balance.

to be continued...
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 07:51:01 PM by Kva3imoda »

Offline Kva3imoda

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Re: My "DP" Item System.
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2015, 09:17:47 PM »
2. Tier System.

What it means "Tier"?

Tier - technically, this is a Item level, but there are differences.

Level - associated with each character level.
Tier - associated with a character level interval.

Char 1lvl - Item 1lvl - Tier 1
Char 2lvl - Item 2lvl - Tier 1
...
Char 53lvl - Item 53lvl - Tier 6
...
Char 78lvl - Item 78lvl - Tier 8
Etc.

Why I plan to use Tiers?

Well, I think it's more convenient. Require less time to create all necessary items. There is no need to do a "Long" 100lvl - graphs.
Moreover, a player is likely not notice the difference and I will explain why.  :)
Now, the original system is "too overloaded". We have a lot of items, but they are not much different.

Let's say we have two different axes -
Axe lvl5 & Axe lvl6.

Axe lvl5 have 120-125 damage
Axe lvl6 have 125-130 damage
 - difference is insignificant. Player does not have incentive to seek a second Axe, because it is almost identical to the first one.

But if we look at other two axes -
Axe lvl5 & Axe lvl10.

Axe lvl5 have 120-125 damage
Axe lvl10 have 145-150 damage
 - now we see a significant difference between these Axes.

Therefore, we do not need intermediate variants. We just keep and use Axe lvl5 & Axe lvl10. Gap between levels we will fill using the "rarity". Characteristics / bonuses: Rare Item = 1.2 Normal Item, Unique Item = 1.4 Normal Item

I plan to use 50 character levels, so I use 10 Tiers.

Tier1 for 1-5 Character level
Tier2 for 5-10 Character level
...
Tier9 for 40-45 Character level
Tier10 for 45-50 Character level

This is handy - for each Tier will match its own parameters(armor, damage, bonuses), icons and 3d-models(we have about 13-19 models for each type of weapons and armor. 10 we use for Tier1-Tier10, the other for unique items).

Also, I removed all information about item level.  When you find an item, you can not know what level has this item. I believe that this information is not critical and only distract from important information.
Items without level - it is very convenient.  :-\

For example, you can put a Normal high-level Item in the the starting location.
Yes, is a Normal Item, but has high characteristics.
If the Player will see information about level of this Item, it may arouse suspicion
 - "Why I find an high-level Item in a low-level location? Maybe it is a bug or cheating?"
 - "Nope, you just found a Super-Mega Сool Item!"
But we do not have information about the Item Level and now it's not a bug - it's a feature that allows us to create and use one Item(Normal high-level Item) instead of two (Mega Cool low-level Item & Normal high-level Item).

Something like this:


You can see that Normal Axe Tier3 much better than Normal Axe Tier1 and without information about the Item Level you can use it.

to be continued
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 02:51:11 AM by Kva3imoda »

Offline Kva3imoda

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Re: My "DP" Item System.
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2015, 05:21:18 AM »
3. Divide and Conquer.

"Divide and Conquer" is my main rules for my item system.  :)

My goal - to get a comfortable, simple and understandable system. To implement this I have some ideas

a) Armor

We have 2 "blue" items - "The Real Armor" and 7"green" items - "Jewellery".

It is logical that "The Real Armor" gives us a Real protection - Armor Points, but "Jewellery" does not have Real protection.

Therefore, the "blue" items(Helmet & Chestplate) will be the main source of Armor Points. I plan to use the following proportion:
Helmet gives us 1/4 Total Armor Points and Chestplate - 3/4 Total Armor Points.

"green" items (Amulet & Rings) does not have the Armor Points.

About bonuses.

Different types of armor will have its own unique bonuses. I do not have the final version, but there are some ideas.

Amulet - can have Proc skills
Helmet - can have a Stun protection, Medium health bonus, Big Intelligence bonus
Chestplate - can have Big health bonus, Big Strength, Dexterity, Vitality bonuses
Rings - can have many small bonuses(health, mana, stats, AS, RS etc.)

Unique items can have any bonuses in any quantity. Most likely it will be a coolest 1-3 bonuses.

If you have any suggestions about it, please write to me.  :)

Well, let's continue.

The main problem of the game now - is the lack of protective mechanic. It would be nice to have a parry, dodge against skill, and so on. But we do not have this.

My goal - force to work the Armor mechanics as it should.
Why Armor does not work?
I have my own opinion on this matter, and the main problem - a very high critical damage. It looks like Damage = 50k, and you have 2k armor, of course it is very wrong.
Armor should be comparable with the Damage, then it will work.


to be continued
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 12:29:26 AM by Kva3imoda »

Offline Bill Hartman

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Re: My "DP" Item System.
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2015, 12:30:47 AM »
Spoiler
It's all about my "Dark Palace" mod.

This topic about my point of view on "Items" in general. Let's talk about it.

"Items" is an important part of the gameplay. Creating a good and necessary game items is time-consuming process, so you need a good plan how to organize this part of the gameplay.

Items are closely connected with a playable character and RPG-system.
About my planned RPG system, you can read here : "Dark Palace" - Dungeon crawler. Yup, this is a very old topic.  :D
In recent days, I rethought some things, but generally all the same. Now I plan to use only 50lvls of character and it is connected with my Item system.

My plan.

1. Simplified inventory.

This scheme has significant advantages in the creation of game items.
Let's compare with the standard inventory.

(Image removed from quote.)

Disadvantages:
a) We have a smaller amount of items (11 vs. 12).
I do not think that does it matter because the amount is still sufficient for customization.

b) Less flexible system for the character appearance. (2 vs. 6)
Well, actually this has pros and cons, it depends on the point of view. I like harmony, and beautiful appearance with "full armor".  :)

Advantages:
a) My scheme is a little bit more logical.
Our character has 6 fingers - so there are 6 rings.

b) Always beautiful appearance! (2 vs. 6)
*look above  ;)

с) We have many "green" items and only 2 "blue" items
It is very convenient because there is no need to configure a Wardrobe in this items.
Like in "blue" items:
Code: [Select]
	[WARDROBE]
<STRING>RACE:HUMAN
<STRING>GENDER:MALE
<STRING>MESH:media/wardrobe/_lvls1_10/berserker_01/hum_berserker_01.mesh
<STRING>TEXTURE:media/wardrobe/_lvls1_10/berserker_01/hu_ber_01_boot.png
<STRING>SET:BOOTSSTANDARD
[/WARDROBE]
As you know, I plan to use a lot of non-standard character models and for me it is very important. In my scheme I need to configure only 2 "blue types" of items (Chestplate(Full Armor) & Helmet).

d) I have only 4 Types of Armor. (4 vs. 9).
This is great for creating game items and work on balance. Big time savings.

e) Most "green" items - is rings!
Yeah, it's really cool. It's incredibly convenient.  :D Convenient for bonuses (you can use any and it would be logical). Has simple icons(you can create dozens like Rainbow Redux by Oats ) and simple name (just a "ring", not "gloves/mittens/gauntlets/handguards"). Simple for the configuration and balance.

to be continued...

Does this mean you are reworking all of the chest armor models? Wow...very ambitious! Maybe you and Epoch could collaborate on items.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 07:31:26 AM by Kva3imoda »

Offline Bill Hartman

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Re: My "DP" Item System.
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2015, 12:32:54 AM »
Spoiler
2. Tier System.

What it means "Tier"?

Tier - technically, this is a Item level, but there are differences.

Level - associated with each character level.
Tier - associated with a character level interval.

Char 1lvl - Item 1lvl - Tier 1
Char 2lvl - Item 2lvl - Tier 1
...
Char 53lvl - Item 53lvl - Tier 6
...
Char 78lvl - Item 78lvl - Tier 8
Etc.

Why I plan to use Tiers?

Well, I think it's more convenient. Require less time to create all necessary items. There is no need to do a "Long" 100lvl - graphs.
Moreover, a player is likely not notice the difference and I will explain why.  :)
Now, the original system is "too overloaded". We have a lot of items, but they are not much different.

Let's say we have two different axes -
Axe lvl5 & Axe lvl6.

Axe lvl5 have 120-125 damage
Axe lvl6 have 125-130 damage
 - difference is insignificant. Player does not have incentive to seek a second Axe, because it is almost identical to the first one.

But if we look at other two axes -
Axe lvl5 & Axe lvl10.

Axe lvl5 have 120-125 damage
Axe lvl10 have 145-150 damage
 - now we see a significant difference between these Axes.

Therefore, we do not need intermediate variants. We just keep and use Axe lvl5 & Axe lvl10. Gap between levels we will fill using the "rarity". Characteristics / bonuses: Rare Item = 1.2 Normal Item, Unique Item = 1.4 Normal Item

I plan to use 50 character levels, so I use 10 Tiers.

Tier1 for 1-5 Character level
Tier2 for 5-10 Character level
...
Tier9 for 40-45 Character level
Tier10 for 45-50 Character level

This is handy - for each Tier will match its own parameters(armor, damage, bonuses), icons and 3d-models(we have about 13-19 models for each type of weapons and armor. 10 we use for Tier1-Tier10, the other for unique items).

Also, I removed all information about item level.  When you find an item, you can not know what level has this item. I believe that this information is not critical and only distract from important information.
Items without level - it is very convenient.  :-\

For example, you can put a Normal high-level Item in the the starting location.
Yes, is a Normal Item, but has high characteristics.
If the Player will see information about level of this Item, it may arouse suspicion
 - "Why I find an high-level Item in a low-level location? Maybe it is a bug or cheating?"
 - "Nope, you just found a Super-Mega Сool Item!"
But we do not have information about the Item Level and now it's not a bug - it's a feature that allows us to create and use one Item(Normal high-level Item) instead of two (Mega Cool low-level Item & Normal high-level Item).

Something like this:
(Image removed from quote.)

You can see that Normal Axe Tier3 much better than Normal Axe Tier1 and without information about the Item Level you can use it.

to be continued

Love the tier system...do you plan on having item qualities beyond Legendary? In addition to the your item tiers, maybe you could have the following item system:

Gray--Poor items
White--Standard item
Green-Enchanted
Instead of Blue, use Yellow for rare items.
Use Blue items as Epic instead of Unique items (since the items are not actually unique--I have had multiple 'uniques' in my inventory)
Legendaries as in the game

If Epoch gives permission to use his item level up mod:


Mythical Items using Epoch's item level up mod.
Relic items using Epoch's item level up mod.
Artifacts items using Epoch's item level up mod.

Epoch/Kva: Opinions?
« Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 07:31:55 AM by Kva3imoda »

Offline Kva3imoda

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Re: My "DP" Item System.
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2015, 02:46:29 AM »
Does this mean you are reworking all of the chest armor models?

Nope, I just use my knowledge about Wardrobe -mechanic. I have some experience with that stuff.  :)

Love the tier system...do you plan on having item qualities beyond Legendary? In addition to the your item tiers, maybe you could have the following item system:

Gray--Poor items
White--Standard item
Green-Enchanted
Instead of Blue, use Yellow for rare items.

Use Blue items as Epic instead of Unique items (since the items are not actually unique--I have had multiple 'uniques' in my inventory)
Legendaries as in the game

Long ago, a couple of years ago, I made this table:



You can see that Torchlight color scheme is sufficient. Yup, Torchlight use a different color, but it does not matter. The main thing - how it works and I do not want to waste time on a color change.  :)

I do not think that broken/trash/inferior items must be added to the game. This unnecessary items that will interfere.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 03:13:29 AM by Kva3imoda »

Offline Bill Hartman

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Re: My "DP" Item System.
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2015, 03:12:34 AM »

Long ago, a couple of years ago, I made this table:

(Image removed from quote.)

You can see that Torchlight color scheme is sufficient. Yup, Torchlight use a different color, but it does not matter. The main thing - how it works and I do not want to waste time on a color change.  :)


Hi Kva,

No need to waste your time on a color change (yellow, blue) when I did that already. Epoch and I want to make an additional item tier beyond Legendary...Mythical--using his item levelling system.

On a totally unrelated note...I guess you are from Russia and you say you are from the 'End of the Earth' if I recall correctly...Vladivostok? So much history there...borders North Korea, battle of Tsushima nearby..Kurile Islands dispute to this day. Wow.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 03:14:51 AM by Bill Hartman »

Offline Kva3imoda

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Re: My "DP" Item System.
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2015, 04:56:27 AM »
No need to waste your time on a color change (yellow, blue) when I did that already. Epoch and I want to make an additional item tier beyond Legendary...Mythical--using his item levelling system.
Hi Bill

I got it.  :)
But in any case, it is not my priority. I need to do a dozen things, then maybe I'll think about the colors.
Moreover, if you use the method of inserting/replacing a Color Code in a title or description. Then it's does not approach me, because this method breaks all standard translations in any language. This can be a problem. I want to use most of the unique items, without changing the translation.

Vladivostok?
Yup.
Torchlight Modding unites people all over the World!  :D

Offline gytfunke

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Re: My "DP" Item System.
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2015, 05:31:55 AM »
Wish I had been modding TL2 when I lived in South Korea.  I might have come visit you.  Now it's so far away...

Offline Kva3imoda

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Re: My "DP" Item System.
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2015, 06:18:10 AM »
I might have come visit you.  Now it's so far away...
Maybe someday, who knows...  :)
Maybe someday we'll go to visit Pha!  ;D

since the items are not actually unique--I have had multiple 'uniques' in my inventory
Oh, I missed it.
Yes, I agree that it is necessary to do something with unique items. They must be truly unique. I saw the option "unique for world" for units, but not yet tried it.
Every unit has GUID, perhaps it is not generated for the second time, but it can cause problems in cooperative play.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 06:31:41 AM by Kva3imoda »

Offline Kva3imoda

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Re: My "DP" Item System.
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2015, 11:31:24 AM »
I did a shot video demonstration. You can see that the Armor is not broken in the game, yes, it works specific manner, but works fine. Now in the game is broken Dealt Damage (the main problem - too high Сrits)
Also, this video demonstrates how to block the high damage and you can draw a conclusion, why now it does not work - because the game does not have such armor.



all (character, weapons, armors and mobs) has equal 20 level.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 01:17:12 PM by Kva3imoda »

Offline Kva3imoda

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Re: My "DP" Item System.
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2015, 02:10:57 PM »
I do not know why no one thought about to change Vitality Armor bonus. This is the easiest way to achieve a some balance in the game. And Vitality will be the most useful stat in the game. But no mercy - it needs to be changed radically!  >:(
Now we have a maximum 500 Vitality = 125% Armor Bonus - this is a very small. Absolutely insufficient amount. I do not know how much to do for a perfect balance, but if you do 2000-2500% - believe me, nobody hurt you.  :D
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 02:16:46 PM by Kva3imoda »

Offline Kva3imoda

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Re: My "DP" Item System.
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2015, 02:38:39 PM »


105lvl Dark Alchemist trying to hurt me. I have 2 standard rare rings and Normal Chestplate and + 10 Brutality!  :D
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 02:42:32 PM by Kva3imoda »

Offline Kva3imoda

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Re: My "DP" Item System.
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2015, 04:08:02 PM »
Let's calculate how much should be a Armor bonus?

At the beginning character 1lvl without armor can endure 20 hits. We need a 100lvl character that can endure 20 hits.

at 100lvl
character have
~ 4500hp

can equip unique items 100lvl
~ chest 192 Physical Armor
~ pants 140 PA
~ shoulders 102 PA
~ helmet 77 PA
~ gloves 77 PA
~ boots 77 PA
Total: 665 PA

~ Belt 288/4=72 Elemental Armor(Fire, Ice, Poison or Electric)
~ Amulet 288/4 = 72 EA
~ Rings 2*192/4 = 96 EA
Total: 240 EA

You can see that the elemental armor is substantially less than physical. But for such items, you can easily find a double bonus, triple and even quadruple! Something like this: http://tidbi.ru/eng/item.php?item=engineer_06_ring_alt_c
So you can collect the right amount of Elemental Armor (Fire, Ice, Poison or Electric) if you really want to do this.

Let suppose that our ideal armor = 650 Armor Points

4500HP = 20 Hits * Dt
Dt - Damage taken by Hit

So, our Dt should be
Dt=4500/20=225

The second formula:

Dt= random(101)/100*(Dd - 0.5* Armor)
where
random(101)/100 - a randomly value from 0 to 1
D - Deal Damage (100lvl Normal Monster Deal damage = 3163 Damage)
Armor - our Physical or Elemental Armor

Suppose that "random(101)/100" is equal to average value and = 0,5

Then
225=0.5*(3163 - 0.5* Armor)
Armor = 2*(3163 - 2*225)=5426!

This is our ideal armor!  :) If you have so much armor, then any normal monster 100lvl can kill you for 15-20 hits.
Suppose that we spent all 500 points in Vitality and get the Maximum(Cap) Armor bonus.
It should be as follows: 5426/650=8,347 or 835%

I did not test, this value is just a theory. But I believe in success.  :)

« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 04:22:50 PM by Kva3imoda »

Offline Kva3imoda

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Re: My "DP" Item System.
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2015, 02:30:05 AM »
It should be as follows: 5426/650=8,347 or 835%
More correctly 835% - 100% = +735%  :)
Yes, it can be more, may be less - this is a question of balance. Additionally, you must make a schedule for the lower levels (and smaller values Vitality) and incorporate additional health - Vitality bonus.

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