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Author Topic: [CLASS] Emberdrake  (Read 8932 times)

Offline Sch123

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Re: [TL2] Monster Class: General Questions
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2018, 05:32:03 PM »
Hi @Lord Nyriox

I've tried your mod, it's looks very interesting.

- If I can give an opinion, I think the dragon's size is too big (at least please make not to exceed the screen). Maybe if you want to be that big, you can make it that way when the Charge Bar is fully loaded, that way it will grow in a few moments (Maybe after the charge bar is ready).

- For variations maybe you can give a colors on the dragon.

- For when you equipped melee weapons, the 1h weapon currently looks the best rather than 2h weapon. But it seems to be more suitable for a dragonoid than a dragon. :)

- Some of the Claw weapons also look good for those that have quite long razor claws (but still not look natural). Maybe you can make a dragon's claw covered with aura, to make the dragon's claw look a little longer (the color of aura depends on the element you give). ;D

- Long-range weapons do not seem to fit.

- But I found something nice when I tried to use Wand weapon. It's just looks weird when holding it. But the animation effect when dragons attack using wand is very good. Especially when a fireball is thrown from the hands of a dragon. I'm wondering if a dragon has passive skills where sometimes he can also fire a fireball attack might be good (not limited to fireballs only). :D

- Did you remove the skill to summon gargoyle when spraying fire?

Offline Lord Nyriox

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Re: [TL2] "Dragon Alchemist" Class
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2018, 11:23:13 PM »
- If I can give an opinion, I think the dragon's size is too big (at least please make not to exceed the screen). Maybe if you want to be that big, you can make it that way when the Charge Bar is fully loaded, that way it will grow in a few moments (Maybe after the charge bar is ready).

Trust me, the original dragon model was even worse, size-wise.  This is only 0.8-times the size.   

I have considered scaling the dragon even further down in size, but I am concerned that it won't seem like a "mature" dragon if I get it too small. 

As for the charge-bar, adding one is item one-million-and-two on my to-do list for this class—but the mechanic I was thinking of would be a "stamina" bar, which reduces combat effectiveness the more it is filled.  The dragon's massive firepower should come at a cost, no? 

EDIT:  I scaled it to about what I initially felt to look perfect during active play.  I too am annoyed that the character-select screen seems to cut off half the dragon's torso. 

I am considering scaling the dragon down to 0.6-times instead of 0.8-times (which should still be large, but not blot out a third of the screen).  What do you think? 

- For variations maybe you can give a colors on the dragon.

I have already made a dozen skin variations for the dragon model.  Unfortunately, actually making them selectable options is not nearly as easy for a class as it is for a pet. 

(Wardrobe-subsystem compatibility is a nightmare for monster classes.) 

- For when you equipped melee weapons, the 1h weapon currently looks the best rather than 2h weapon. But it seems to be more suitable for a dragonoid than a dragon. :)

Yeah, the weapon scaling is more than a little temporary (I just arbitrarily assigned them to 1.5-times their original size).  And the build I am currently testing uses a nicer-looking model for the (elemental) starting weapons. 

- Some of the Claw weapons also look good for those that have quite long razor claws (but still not look natural). Maybe you can make a dragon's claw covered with aura, to make the dragon's claw look a little longer (the color of aura depends on the element you give). ;D

Good luck with that.  I have not the slightest clue how to take a piece of a mesh like that. 

See above on what I am doing for the starting claws.  The model I changed to looks considerably better. 

- Long-range weapons do not seem to fit.

No kidding.  There is a reason I did not make the class able to use them (with the exception of wands). 

- But I found something nice when I tried to use Wand weapon. It's just looks weird when holding it. But the animation effect when dragons attack using wand is very good. Especially when a fireball is thrown from the hands of a dragon. I'm wondering if a dragon has passive skills where sometimes he can also fire a fireball attack might be good (not limited to fireballs only). :D

That is why I made the wands usable.

Technically, the animation is pretty much the same as the standard melee attack.  The dual-wielding animation for wands simply merges both hands in the same animation-file (with compressed timing). 

As for passive skills, I am currently planning to add elemental damage of all types to most skills (with a high-level bonus adding poison damage), but with additional costs (such as reduced attack speed). 

EDIT:  My primary focus at the moment is skills for this class.  Once I have a proper suite of skills for a "dragon alchemist", then I can work on the other ideas I have queued up.

- Did you remove the skill to summon gargoyle when spraying fire?

I did not actually implement that skill in the first place. 

I am, however, planning on adapting a player-optimized version of that skill eventually—along with an Ordrak-style "sacrifice" skill, killing your gargoyles to restore health. 

EDIT:  Version 16 should now include both an "acid breath" skill adapted from the ghost-dragon boss, and a prototype "gargoyle spawn" skill adapted from the Vyrax boss.  The summon needs retuning. 
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 01:50:20 PM by Lord Nyriox »

Offline Kva3imoda

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Re: [TL2] "Dragon Alchemist" Class
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2018, 10:36:45 PM »
Lord Nyriox have you thought about just hiding a weapon? I think that the dragon's weapons are claws, fangs and fire. This is more authentic than a weapon in the paws.

As I see it: you can equip weapons in slots, but this only affects damage and attack speed. Attack 1 and 2 are used for all one-handed melee weapons. Attack2, FlySlam(to make it is shorter) and TailWhip for all 2h melee weapon. FireBall(short and long) for range 1h and 2h weapons.
For different weapon types you can make different special effects. Something like Boss Wraith uses - ghostly hammers, swords and axes - you can attach it to the tail.  :D

I'm not yet sure how to implement this in the final version, but I believe that this should work.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 10:51:37 PM by Kva3imoda »

Offline Lord Nyriox

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Re: [TL2] "Dragon Alchemist" Class
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2018, 01:15:17 AM »
Lord Nyriox have you thought about just hiding a weapon? I think that the dragon's weapons are claws, fangs and fire. This is more authentic than a weapon in the paws.

I was thinking that this is a dragon that has been "civilized" by Ember (the way Ordrak must have once been).  Otherwise, how could the dragon communicate with humanoids (accepting and completing quests)? 

I deliberately unhid weapons as an extension of this.  If a dragon can talk shop about magic with your neighborhood Alchemist, would not the dragon at some point at least experiment with using the same kind of tools as his or her humanoid acquaintances? 

As I see it: you can equip weapons in slots, but this only affects damage and attack speed. Attack 1 and 2 are used for all one-handed melee weapons. Attack2, FlySlam(to make it is shorter) and TailWhip for all 2h melee weapon. FireBall(short and long) for range 1h and 2h weapons.
For different weapon types you can make different special effects. Something like Boss Wraith uses - ghostly hammers, swords and axes - you can attach it to the tail.  :D


If you want to try adding such things, be my guest 

On the other hand, I suppose an Ember-infused magic-wielding dragon could simply meld any equipment into its body with a sort of "magical augmentation" procedure (which would explain why armor is invisible).  :P

Offline Kva3imoda

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Re: [TL2] "Dragon Alchemist" Class
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2018, 02:22:02 AM »
I was thinking that this is a dragon that has been "civilized" by Ember (the way Ordrak must have once been).  Otherwise, how could the dragon communicate with humanoids (accepting and completing quests)? 

I deliberately unhid weapons as an extension of this.  If a dragon can talk shop about magic with your neighborhood Alchemist, would not the dragon at some point at least experiment with using the same kind of tools as his or her humanoid acquaintances? 
Well, in many stories, dragons can communicate with people - be it speech or telepathy. It's not a problem.
But I do not know dragons using weapons. I know such creatures in the Divinity Original Sin 2 game, but they are more like lizards than real dragons. In other worlds, dragons turn into people to use human tools and weapons.

Offline Lord Nyriox

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Re: [TL2] "Dragon Alchemist" Class
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2018, 04:32:56 AM »
Well, in many stories, dragons can communicate with people - be it speech or telepathy. It's not a problem.

Unfortunately, however, this is not true in Vilderan. 

All these "firedrakes" flying around show signs of significant intelligence—but do not ever bother to attempt direct communication with all the humanoids scurrying around.  Community members have compared their intelligence to that of dolphins when discussing lore. 

Ordrak, on the other hand, was quite capable of communicating with humanoids on their own level—his taunts were in more or less standard English.  He also organized a whole host of mostly-humanoid minions in a fancy palace around him. 

But at one point—sometime in the mists of centuries past—Ordrak had been just an ordinary dragon that was addicted to Ember.  Over the centuries, as he continually imbibed hit after hit of Ember in the deep caverns in which he had come to dwell, Ordrak gradually mutated into a twisted form, not particularly resembling the form of his birth. 

All of this is standard Torchlight lore—and I wish to keep my class consistent with it. 

But I do not know dragons using weapons. I know such creatures in the Divinity Original Sin 2 game, but they are more like lizards than real dragons. In other worlds, dragons turn into people to use human tools and weapons.


Your wording suggests that you are comparing my class to dragons from other games—but not to dragons from books or films.  I actually spend more time reading about dragons in books, than I ever do playing with them in games (Legend of Spyro notwithstanding). 

In stories where dragons stand on all fours (which is almost all of them, if you do not count wyverns), your statement does indeed hold true. 

But the dragons in Vilderan seem to be more or less bipedal—and the few stories I have encountered in which dragons are both civilized and bipedal (yes, they do exist), do in fact have the dragons using weapons in their natural form.  It is also worth noting that, lore-wise, there is no established precedent in Vilderan, of a dragon that can shapeshift into a humanoid. 

Claws are great, but a sword has better reach, and a longer edge.  Why do you think humanoids invented them in the first place? 

Do you honestly think a dragon that acts human is going to be squeamish about using any tools it can get its taloned hands on? 

Offline Kva3imoda

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Re: [TL2] "Dragon Alchemist" Class
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2018, 04:51:00 AM »
Well, I just offered my opinion about the dragons. Use the fury and strength of the dragon in battle and ignore the primitive human weapons, what could be better?  :D This gives a new experience and originality of the class.

In any case, this is your mod and your decisions.

Offline Lord Nyriox

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Re: [TL2] "Dragon Alchemist" Class
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2018, 07:43:55 PM »
Use the fury and strength of the dragon in battle and ignore the primitive human weapons, what could be better?  :D This gives a new experience and originality of the class.

Umm.  If I wanted the "fury and strength of dragons", I could simply use the "dragonborn" class mod. 

What I wanted was to play as a dragon, within the parameters of established official Torchlight lore.  The "lore-friendliness" aspect is important to me, since I have not even played TL2 yet, and do not want my first playthrough (in which I will be using this class) to be marred by the feeling of my character not really fitting into the role he plays. 

Yes, I am a lore nut as well as a dragon nut.  ;> 
« Last Edit: May 24, 2018, 07:46:10 PM by Lord Nyriox »

Offline Kva3imoda

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Re: [TL2] "Dragon Alchemist" Class
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2018, 08:41:32 PM »
I do not know what kind of lore you're talking about, but in the game no one dragon(art, monsters, statues, skeletons) which I saw does not carry/equip a weapon.  :-[

Offline Kva3imoda

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Re: [TL2] "Dragon Alchemist" Class
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2018, 09:38:05 PM »
Previously, we talked a lot about the lore. I believe that Ordrak is the Sixth Guardian - The Guardian of Stone.
http://forums.runicgames.com/discussion/comment/494627/#Comment_494627

http://tidbi.ru/eng/item.php?item=bone_01_amulet_f_alt_b

This is one of the reasons why he can talk. All Guardians very willingly communicate with all people.


Spectral Dragon
The dragons are all but gone from the world. In the waning days of the dwarven empire, when Ember became scarce, the noble beasts were hunted, enslaved, and harnessed, so that the dwarves could siphon off their energy to power their machines. Then, after the dwarves died out, an ancient cult of Estherian zealots found the enchained dragons, and worshipped them as captive gods, feeding them tainted Ember, until they were mad with corruption. The dark Estherians slaughtered the dragons when they became too dangerous, but it was too late: Their Ember-fouled spirits lingered on as Spectral Dragons—maniacal, feral spirit-dragons, with an insatiable hunger for magic ... and for those who use it.
http://www.runicgames.com/blog/2011/04/08/monsters-of-torchlight-ii/

Here is another discussion, sad that the pictures are gone.
http://forums.runicgames.com/discussion/56312/lore-a-world-map
« Last Edit: May 24, 2018, 09:57:53 PM by Kva3imoda »

Offline Lord Nyriox

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Re: [TL2] "Dragon Alchemist" Class
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2018, 12:52:47 AM »
Previously, we talked a lot about the lore. I believe that Ordrak is the Sixth Guardian - The Guardian of Stone.
http://forums.runicgames.com/discussion/comment/494627/#Comment_494627

http://tidbi.ru/eng/item.php?item=bone_01_amulet_f_alt_b

This is one of the reasons why he can talk. All Guardians very willingly communicate with all people.

While that would be a fun theory to explore in an expansion mod, note that the term "retcon" was mentioned.  In other words, at the time of TL2's release, this was not official lore.  It was a user proposal for future content, but one that did not actually end up in anything posted by Runic Games. 

Spectral Dragon
The dragons are all but gone from the world. In the waning days of the dwarven empire, when Ember became scarce, the noble beasts were hunted, enslaved, and harnessed, so that the dwarves could siphon off their energy to power their machines. Then, after the dwarves died out, an ancient cult of Estherian zealots found the enchained dragons, and worshipped them as captive gods, feeding them tainted Ember, until they were mad with corruption. The dark Estherians slaughtered the dragons when they became too dangerous, but it was too late: Their Ember-fouled spirits lingered on as Spectral Dragons—maniacal, feral spirit-dragons, with an insatiable hunger for magic ... and for those who use it.
http://www.runicgames.com/blog/2011/04/08/monsters-of-torchlight-ii/

It is my understanding that (in official lore at least) Ordrak was supposedly once one of these tainted dragons, but escaped execution, and went hunting elsewhere for Ember to consume (winding up in the caverns beneath what would one day be Torchlight).

Leaving aside that aspect, what if some enterprising Estherian decided to go trap some dragons, and fed them non-tainted Ember as an experiment?  Would it be so far-fetched (given the myriad symptoms of Ember influence), to have the dragons in such an experiment begin to demonstrate humanoid traits? 

Mind you, I was thinking more along the lines of: some long-isolated monk-like sect of dragons that feed their young Ember (to enhance their abilities), which has only just now come out, in response to the rising prevalence of Ember Blight.  (Simpler is better for class design, in my opinion.)

Here is another discussion, sad that the pictures are gone.
http://forums.runicgames.com/discussion/56312/lore-a-world-map

This might be a thread to explore later for lore-expansion ideas, but not particularly for this class. 

« Last Edit: May 25, 2018, 12:55:34 AM by Lord Nyriox »

Offline Kva3imoda

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Re: [TL2] "Dragon Alchemist" Class
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2018, 01:27:51 AM »
While that would be a fun theory to explore in an expansion mod, note that the term "retcon" was mentioned.  In other words, at the time of TL2's release, this was not official lore.  It was a user proposal for future content, but one that did not actually end up in anything posted by Runic Games.
Yes, these are assumptions, but the Guardian of Mana talks about this: "Ordrak was once a Guardian, of sorts, and his heart is more powerful than they imagine."

In any case, I'm just trying to explain why I have proposed the "wild dragon" class. Just because it is more logical for the TL2 world as I think. Also, all animations perfectly fit into this concept.

Offline Lord Nyriox

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Re: [TL2] "Dragon Alchemist" Class
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2018, 05:03:26 AM »
Yes, these are assumptions, but the Guardian of Mana talks about this: "Ordrak was once a Guardian, of sorts, and his heart is more powerful than they imagine."

Indeed. 

Of course, one can quibble on the significance of the "of sorts" qualifier (because the phrasing seems to imply Ordrak was guardian of something other than an element), but I do see your point. 

In any case, I'm just trying to explain why I have proposed the "wild dragon" class. Just because it is more logical for the TL2 world as I think. Also, all animations perfectly fit into this concept.

When I first began working on this class, "wild dragon" was what I was thinking, too. 

But then, the dialog of the first quest really nagged at me (since it effectively implied that my character could talk), and I had to come up with some kind of lore-friendly explanation for that, so it wouldn't feel as jarring. 

Which got me to thinking about the official TL1-era lore for Ordrak (which I more or less summarized at the beginning of this debate)—and so I decided that my dragon character must have been doping up on Ember.  ;} 

I found I rather liked that idea in terms of both lore (stopping the Ember Blight becomes a whole lot more urgent when you are practically a carrier of it) and play-style (what could be more destructive than a dragon that wields magic?). 

From there, I came up with this idea of a small sect of dragons that feed their hatchlings Ember to make them more magically inclined (and coincidentally more humanoid in thinking), which sent some of its members out to stop the accelerated spread of Ember Blight.  Hence all the chasing after the Dark Alchemist (or whatever his official title is). 


Going back to the original subject (since we could argue the lore aspect for months), the true original reason I made the weapons visible was "because I could".  On a purely aesthetic level, not many monster models actually look more or less decent with weapons in their hands—and when I found that the firedrake model was one of those few, I could not resist taking advantage of it. 

That being said, I could easily make two releases of this mod—one with visible weapons and one with them hidden.  But having at least an option to see weapons is a must for me, given the above statements. 

« Last Edit: May 25, 2018, 05:09:14 PM by Lord Nyriox »

Offline Lord Nyriox

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Re: [TL2] "Dragon Alchemist" Class
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2018, 02:52:50 AM »
Sorry for the recent radio silence on this project.  Development has slowed down to a crawl lately, due to a number of factors—one of which is limited free time. 

The project is not in a safe-to-build state at the moment, due to a significant restructuring of the mod's internals (which is still in progress). 

Besides that, much of my focus, right now, is on adding the "magic skills" to the class. 

  • Wing Storm (Shocking Burst) – Flap your wings with violent force, sending lightning hurtling at your foes.
  • Ember Wave (TL1CP/Ember Wave) – Send a wave of mana through the earth, shredding your opponents with spikes of Ember.
  • Intuition (TL1CP/Adventurer) – Your senses sharpen, improving the potency of potions and rate of Experience gain.
  • Soul Shatter (Death's Bounty) – Bind the souls of all foes within 6 meters of the target. Upon their death, their life and mana are drawn to nearby players through soul bolts.
  • Prismatic Breath (Prismatic Bolt) – Breathe a flurry of 5 prismatic bolts that seek out nearby foes. Each bolt has a chance to cause a random elemental status effect on its target.
  • Ember Breath (TL1CP/Ember Lance) – Breath a beam of blistering energy.
  • Shackle Burst (Chain Snare) – Release a pulse of energy that pulls in nearby foes.

The original source for each skill is listed in parentheses. 

Offline Phanjam

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Re: [TL2] "Dragon Alchemist" Class
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2018, 09:39:53 AM »
Hi @Lord Nyriox will the DL link in the OP go to your latest build version (just before the "internal overhaul" you mentioned)?



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