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Author Topic: [TL1] Ember-eater class  (Read 3410 times)

Offline Lord Nyriox

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[TL1] Ember-eater class
« on: March 02, 2017, 04:31:11 PM »
Due to the complexity of this project (as well as my inexperience modding), I am putting this idea on the backburner. 

Before I go, however, here are my findings regarding the planned core mechanic: 
  • Potions that provide permanent health/mana boosts use a special independent field within the player character file.  I have not yet checked whether this can be applied to other stats, though it looks like it may be possible. 
  • Skills can target items within player inventory, but the only built-in filter for this functionality is "any item" and "unidentified item".  In theory, I could use "unidentified item" to handle filtering (since lore-wise unidentified items are enchanted with Ember), but that would put a serious crimp on the skill "flavor".   
  • The effect data for shrines is not stored within the shrine object itself.  I suspect it is stored somewhere in the terrain layouts instead, but I am not familiar enough with that format to be certain.  I was hoping to examine the internal effects of Enchantment shrines to help derive the item destruction effect. 



**  NOTE:  This project is for Torchlight 1 only (at least for now).  ** 

All right, this might take some explanation. 

A few weeks back, while I was walking home one evening, I had the brilliant (or not so brilliant, depending on how you look at it) idea of a lore-friendly alternate-leveling class—inspired by the stories of arsenic-eaters, of all things. 

This class, which I shall for now call "Ember-eater", would not level in the traditional fashion.  Instead, it would gain power by eating copious amounts of raw Ember. 

Note that by "power", I do not mean experience, but raw stat and resistance points.  For instance, if I eat a "Cracked Fire-Ember", I get a permanent [+1] to Fire-resistance.  If I eat a "Cracked Core-Ember", I get a permanent [+1] to Strength.  On the other hand, if I try to eat, say, a pair of boots (by the same method), nothing will happen.

The way I originally envisioned it, the entire logic tree for consuming Ember would be handled internally by a single starting skill.  Disabling of experience would be handled by a separate (passive) skill. 

For further explanation, see this thread:  https://www.runicgamesfansite.com/torchlight-1-forums/torchlight-1-mods/technical-help/7377-complex-multi-step-spell-idea.html 

Due to the complexity of this project, I have several major questions regarding TL1 skills: 
1. Is there a way to make a skill able to target certain kinds of non-equipment items, but not others?  If so, how? 
2. Is there a way to make a single skill behave differently depending on the name of its target?  If so, how? 
3. Is there a way to make a skill override an entity's internal properties (for example, the "invincible" flag)?  If so, how? 
4. Is there a way to change a skill in TL1 so it uses stats instead of levels as a prerequisite?  If so, how? 
5. Is there a way to make a skill check the properties of the current area, such as whether town-portals are allowed?  If so, how? 

Note that all these questions are part of my actual plans for this class mod, and getting them answered is critical to making this class actually work. 

Thanks for your help,
– Lord Nyriox,
TL1 Tinkerer 
« Last Edit: July 29, 2018, 09:27:01 PM by Lord Nyriox »

Offline Phanjam

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Re: [TL1] Ember-eater class
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2017, 04:19:45 AM »
Hi Nyriox! I can't answer off the top of my head as skills coding is not my strong suit :P but I'll poke around to see what I can answer from among your questions. Let's also hope some of the codemasters like @gytfunke or @Anarch16sync or @RnF also see this and respond ;)

Have you had a look-see through the wiki yet (specifically this page)?  Tho the examples given are all TL2 skills, the coding conventions are near-identical with TL1...
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 06:01:25 AM by Phanjam »



Offline Lord Nyriox

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Re: [TL1] Ember-eater class
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2017, 08:27:19 AM »
Before I uninstalled TorchED in disgust after a few hours of (unsuccessfully) trying to hunt down the internal logic behind enchanting shrines—apparently whatever triggers are associated with shrines are not actually stored in their prop files—I did study the "identify" skill to figure out how it works.  Clearly it has some kind of complex association tree that is complete gibberish to me—I did mention a complete inability to make sense of any code more complex than a script, didn't I? 

I suppose that's an Aspie problem of always thinking sequentially—parallel logic or complex associations simply make no sense to me unless I can break it down into linear patterns. 

Unfortunately for me, the guide you linked assumes some capacity to read and understand complex code.  I was rather hoping for a piecemeal copy-paste… 


Offline gytfunke

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Re: [TL1] Ember-eater class
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2017, 02:11:21 PM »
Hello, M'lord.

I don't have time to go in-depth right now, but I believe what you're attempting is entirely possible.  Large caveat: I've never modded TL1, but what you'd like to do would probably be possible in TL2.

That said, it won't be a walk in the park.  For reference, custom class mods in TL2 usually cost me about 200 hours of my times.  I'll come back and 'splain more later bout the details of what you asked.

Offline Anarch16sync

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Re: [TL1] Ember-eater class
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2017, 06:18:56 PM »
I HAVE BEEN SUMMONED!

Hello there Lord Nyriox, is nice to see someone still in the mood to give TL1 some love this days. Just like Gytfunke, I haven't actually mod anything on TL1, but I read what you want to do and have a bit of an idea of how would I try to do it.

Instead of trying to make skills that interact with the ember item, I would edit the ember to make it give you the effect you want, but only to your character.

Now, How would I implement this crazy and maybe backwards idea:

- Create skills that give you the permanent bonuses, but only if the character met a certain contidion (use of statwatcher or triggetables) and add those skill to the ember.
-Make that the skill of you character add this condition to your character (add or remove a hidden custom stat that other character won't have)

Now you can do two things:
      Make the ember a consumable item, so it will be a socketable and a consumable for you character. (this may cause issues if other character tries to use the ember  ::) )
OR
      Create a special inventory slot for the ember, so you put it there, the effect triggers and the ember disappears (I have no clue how to do this, but is a interesting alternative)

Now, much of this is totally possible in TL2, I haven't look enough at the TL1 editor to see if the items with skills and stats work the same way but is an interesting alternative for you if messing with the actual character skills is too much.

Offline gytfunke

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Re: [TL1] Ember-eater class
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2017, 08:06:03 PM »
So, I agree with Anarch about the two possible implementations: consumable or UI.

The consumable item option would be fine since TL1 is single player; you don't have to worry about multiplayer compatibility with this mod.  The only hard part is that, if setting the base file to consumable doesn't change all the others, you'd have to manually change all the different ember items to 'consumable'.  Then you'd want to add an effect to each ember to make it add to a custom stat (like Anarch said), and you'd probably want to modify the value by quality of ember (+1 for a speck, +5 for a flawless perhaps?)  That might take a little time, but not too much.

The other option, the inventory slot, is done through the UI and the Slots/Containers editor.  This wouldn't require a skill.  Instead, you'd use a logic group to remove the ember and add +1 (or whatever value you wish) to a custom stat that records how much ember you've eaten.  This solution might take a little more time.

I also agree about using a custom stat.  This way, you can also create a graph to control how much of a stat boost the character should get from having eaten a certain amount of ember.  Maybe you want it take 1 Core ember to give +2 Str, but 100 Core ember to give +5 Str (just for example).  You can do that by having an Effect set to the character that gives a bonus to Str based on the (just a suggestion) Core_Ember_Eaten stat.


Now, I'm assuming that you asked...
Quote
1. Is there a way to make a skill able to target certain kinds of non-equipment items, but not others?  If so, how?
2. Is there a way to make a single skill behave differently depending on the name of its target?  If so, how?
3. Is there a way to make a skill override an entity's internal properties (for example, the "invincible" flag)?  If so, how?
4. Is there a way to change a skill in TL1 so it uses stats instead of levels as a prerequisite?  If so, how?
5. Is there a way to make a skill check the properties of the current area, such as whether town-portals are allowed?  If so, how? 

...because that's the setup you imagined for creating an 'ember consumption' mechanic that adds to your stats.  But like Anarch and I have outlined above, I don't think #1-4 are actually necessary.

Just add one effect to your custom class per ember effect (so, one effect that adds Str per Core Ember eaten, another for Fire Res based on Fire Ember eaten, etc).  You'll also want one custom stat per effect, so Fire_Ember_Eaten, Core_Ember_Eaten, etc.



As for #5, I'm not sure.  Why do you want to do this?  There may be an alternate method.

Offline Lord Nyriox

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Re: [TL1] Ember-eater class
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2017, 03:35:39 PM »
Spoiler
So, I agree with Anarch about the two possible implementations: consumable or UI.

The consumable item option would be fine since TL1 is single player; you don't have to worry about multiplayer compatibility with this mod.  The only hard part is that, if setting the base file to consumable doesn't change all the others, you'd have to manually change all the different ember items to 'consumable'.  Then you'd want to add an effect to each ember to make it add to a custom stat (like Anarch said), and you'd probably want to modify the value by quality of ember (+1 for a speck, +5 for a flawless perhaps?)  That might take a little time, but not too much.

The other option, the inventory slot, is done through the UI and the Slots/Containers editor.  This wouldn't require a skill.  Instead, you'd use a logic group to remove the ember and add +1 (or whatever value you wish) to a custom stat that records how much ember you've eaten.  This solution might take a little more time.

I also agree about using a custom stat.  This way, you can also create a graph to control how much of a stat boost the character should get from having eaten a certain amount of ember.  Maybe you want it take 1 Core ember to give +2 Str, but 100 Core ember to give +5 Str (just for example).  You can do that by having an Effect set to the character that gives a bonus to Str based on the (just a suggestion) Core_Ember_Eaten stat.


Now, I'm assuming that you asked...
Quote
1. Is there a way to make a skill able to target certain kinds of non-equipment items, but not others?  If so, how?
2. Is there a way to make a single skill behave differently depending on the name of its target?  If so, how?
3. Is there a way to make a skill override an entity's internal properties (for example, the "invincible" flag)?  If so, how?
4. Is there a way to change a skill in TL1 so it uses stats instead of levels as a prerequisite?  If so, how?
5. Is there a way to make a skill check the properties of the current area, such as whether town-portals are allowed?  If so, how? 

...because that's the setup you imagined for creating an 'ember consumption' mechanic that adds to your stats.  But like Anarch and I have outlined above, I don't think #1-4 are actually necessary.

Just add one effect to your custom class per ember effect (so, one effect that adds Str per Core Ember eaten, another for Fire Res based on Fire Ember eaten, etc).  You'll also want one custom stat per effect, so Fire_Ember_Eaten, Core_Ember_Eaten, etc.



As for #5, I'm not sure.  Why do you want to do this?  There may be an alternate method.

Numbers 3-5 have nothing to do with the implementation of this particular skill and everything to do with my long-term plans for this class. 

I may not have been entirely clear before, so just for clarity's sake:  I wanted this skill to be "form-over-function".  That is to say, my intentions for the Ember-eater were entirely flavor-driven. 

If, as it turns out, that there is no self-contained way to implement the flavor of "eating raw Ember", such that it DOES NOT affect any other classes, items, or skills—then I am screwed anyway, because I do not understand code, meshes, game logic, or basically anything else prerequisite to develop new content in a game.  :/ 

Offline gytfunke

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Re: [TL1] Ember-eater class
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2017, 08:30:50 PM »
Oh, I don't code either.  I'm pretty sure when PJ said:

codemasters like @gytfunke

...he really meant 'script monkey', because that's all I really do.  Chthon's the only one around here who's really mucked about in the code.

So, yes, you should be able to (stylishly) achieve this class' functionality using TorchEd.

I still don't know what you want to do with #3-5, so I'll give you a general answer for each, but if you give me a specific idea of what you're trying to implement I could better share my knowledge of how to make that happen.


#3  Yes.  This should be simple, though depending on what exactly you're trying to do this could take anywhere from a few minutes to many hours of work.

#4  Yes.  You can do this using the UI and Logic Groups.  You basically hijack the skill invest button in the skill pane UI and add stat requirements that must be met before the button becomes functional.  You'll also need to add an additional stat for each skill to track the level of skill investment (so you can give each level a different stat requirement).

#5  ....yes.   But my unfamiliarity with TorchEd makes me unable to speculate on how much time this would take.  I know how to do it in GUTS.  Since the two editors are 95% identical, I'd assume it's possible in TL1.  This might be a fairly complicated procedure.


We can talk about the implementation on these once you get to that point.

Offline Lord Nyriox

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Re: [TL1] Ember-eater class
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2017, 11:04:16 PM »
_Ember-Eater 

So, yes, you should be able to (stylishly) achieve this class' functionality using TorchEd.

In TL1, an equippable spell exists for identifying items.  You activate the spell (skill), then click on the item to identify it. 

What I wanted to do was something similar, but clicking on gems instead, the gems are removed from your inventory, and you get a permanent stat boost.  The properties of the gem items themselves would need to be completely unmodified by this mod. 

Flavor-wise, I wanted this ability to be something that only this class could do, and something fairly self-contained (because I wanted to create an equippable spell for this same ability, so that other classes could use it sometimes). 

#3  Yes.  This should be simple, though depending on what exactly you're trying to do this could take anywhere from a few minutes to many hours of work.

This is another flavor-over-function idea.  Lore-wise, long-term absorption of raw Ember into an organic body renders it effectively immortal.  So, for a class that specializes in doing just that…

Basically I want a passive skill that, when invested, overrides the player unit's "invincible" flag to 1. 

If, however, a respec or similar event is triggered, which removes the investment in this passive skill, then the invincible flag should revert to the default value in the class's .DAT file. 

#4  Yes.  You can do this using the UI and Logic Groups.  You basically hijack the skill invest button in the skill pane UI and add stat requirements that must be met before the button becomes functional.  You'll also need to add an additional stat for each skill to track the level of skill investment (so you can give each level a different stat requirement).

Great—but if I can barely write a Windows batch script, what are the odds that I can manage this successfully? 

#5  ....yes.   But my unfamiliarity with TorchEd makes me unable to speculate on how much time this would take.  I know how to do it in GUTS.  Since the two editors are 95% identical, I'd assume it's possible in TL1.  This might be a fairly complicated procedure.

Ugh.  Basically, I wanted to include a teleport skill from another class mod ("Vindicator")—but I've found said skill is too easy to cheese, and at least once I've managed to drop myself off the map without being able to open a portal to town.  (I had to use the console to get back out.)

…On the other hand, if verifying such a thing is too complicated, I'll probably just attach a disclaimer warning of the risks. 

Also, I don't actually use TorchED.  In TL1, mods are stored as directories rather than archives.  Most of my work relies on a text editor, rather than a GUI.  (Besides, TorchED is ridiculously complicated, just like GUTS…) 


Thanks again,
– Lord Nyriox,
Necromancer of Torchlight

_____


Offline gytfunke

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Re: [TL1] Ember-eater class
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2017, 07:54:24 PM »
Modifying text files is typically 10x faster than using the editors, at least for skills, unit files, spawnclasses and items.

But trust me, if you use Torched you can handle the UI functionality for making #4 work.  The GUI interface for modifying logic functions is super simple.  You literally connect the dots between IF and THEN functions.  Here, check out the GUTS tutorial for an example.  If Torched has something similar it won't be difficult at all.

As far as I know re: using the identify scroll skill as a template, it won't work.  The identify skill is a coded function which doesn't actually work the way skills do.  It's an Effect (a class of function in TL1), but doesn't have any options to change the target or the effect.  Take a look at the two options for this setup that Anarch and I suggested.

#3 is very easy as you've described.  It's just a basic passive skill.  Just remember to set it to remove the effect on Event_End.

And yeah, #5 is definitely a possibility.  I would look to see if you can just add an effect to a dungeon in the Dungeon editor.  You can do this in TL2.  You can use this effect to toggle a custom stat depending on whether teleporting is allowed in the dungeon.  Maybe toggle on in regular zones, toggle off in others.  Then, you set a Stat_Watcher (Stat_Requirement) to your Teleport skill that only allows you to use the skill in zones where teleporting is allowed.

Offline Lord Nyriox

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Re: [TL1] Ember-eater class
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2017, 11:14:38 PM »
Modifying text files is typically 10x faster than using the editors, at least for skills, unit files, spawnclasses and items. 

It's also easier to read.

Here, check out the GUTS tutorial for an example.  If Torched has something similar it won't be difficult at all.

It does; I distinctly remember seeing a logic UI screenshot from TorchED, demonstrating the complex logic behind a particular dungeon mod…

If I can figure it out, I may end up using that to handle the core "ember-eating" skill as well.  Unless the logic groups don't support decision trees, that is.

As far as I know re: using the identify scroll skill as a template, it won't work.  The identify skill is a coded function which doesn't actually work the way skills do.  It's an Effect (a class of function in TL1), but doesn't have any options to change the target or the effect. 

If it were that easy I would already have the mod posted rather than just conceptualized.  My intention was to demonstrate how it should look from a UI standpoint. 

To be precise (this is one of the few cases where I have used TorchED), the identify skill uses the IDENTIFY effect, which is hardcoded into the game.  Obviously that will only work on unidentified items.  However, TorchED does include a built-in method for targeting other items with a skill. 

What it doesn't seem to include is a method of filtering triggered effects based on the specific item targeted.  The only two item-type target options are "item" and "unidentified item".  The Identify spell uses the latter, but switching to the former and replacing the triggered effect with some sort of complex logic tree defining my "ember-eating" effects. 

I'll sketch out a partial sample shortly.

Take a look at the two options for this setup that Anarch and I suggested.


If, by inventory slot, we're talking about a separate window like enchantment…that could work, though I would have preferred a 2-click method like the one I discussed above. 

#3 is very easy as you've described.  It's just a basic passive skill.  Just remember to set it to remove the effect on Event_End.


Yeah, but I wanted to know HOW, given that "INVINCIBLE" is a boolean flag internal to an unit entity, rather than an actual stat.

And yeah, #5 is definitely a possibility.  I would look to see if you can just add an effect to a dungeon in the Dungeon editor.  You can do this in TL2.  You can use this effect to toggle a custom stat depending on whether teleporting is allowed in the dungeon.  Maybe toggle on in regular zones, toggle off in others.  Then, you set a Stat_Watcher (Stat_Requirement) to your Teleport skill that only allows you to use the skill in zones where teleporting is allowed.

As I said, too much work—AND I wanted to retain compatibility with all the other TL1 mods out there, and editing each and every dungeon is not a priority for me at the moment (the rest of this stuff could take years for me given my complete and utter ignorance of even the semi-technical words in half the guides out there). 

That means the disclaimer for that, then…

Thanks again,
– Lord Nyriox


Offline gytfunke

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Re: [TL1] Ember-eater class
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2017, 07:45:36 PM »
Re: #3

You're right.  I can't find the stat in Runic's Static Stats list, but that doesn't mean it's not available for us to play with.  If I had TL2 unpacked onto my computer right now I'd look in the Unit files for a Commander Vale or some similar NPC that's probably set to Invincible and see what the boolean's called in the text file.  Then try declaring that as a dynamic stat in GUTS and creating a passive skill to apply it to your character with an Add/Set Stat Effect.

To declare a dynamic stat, you just add it in the Stats Editor and give it the name you think is most likely used by the game.  You might try several different names if the first one does not work.

Offline Lord Nyriox

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Re: [TL1] Ember-eater class
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2017, 09:41:06 PM »
If I had TL2 unpacked onto my computer right now I'd look in the Unit files for a Commander Vale or some similar NPC that's probably set to Invincible and see what the boolean's called in the text file. 

Note that the "invincible" flag is literally used for every pet in the game.  In the .DAT file for any pet, look for this line:

Code: [Select]
<BOOL>INVINCIBLE:true

I have tested copy-pasting that line in the .DAT file of a class I regularly play.  It simply makes the "invincible" unit stop losing life at 1 HP.  It doesn't stop the unit from taking damage or anything. 

To declare a dynamic stat, you just add it in the Stats Editor and give it the name you think is most likely used by the game.  You might try several different names if the first one does not work.

Are you suggesting that there is ANY built-in interaction with this particular flag?  Because in the default game, I'm fairly sure this boolean flag is only used in hard-coded form. 

Thanks again,
- Lord Nyriox




Offline gytfunke

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Re: [TL1] Ember-eater class
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2017, 01:17:13 AM »

Are you suggesting that there is ANY built-in interaction with this particular flag?  Because in the default game, I'm fairly sure this boolean flag is only used in hard-coded form. 

Thanks again,
- Lord Nyriox

I am not at all certain, but if it's a boolean, integer or a float, then Stats would be the first method I'd try (since they're just bools, floats or ints).

The other thing you could try would be rigging it through the UI if there's an option somewhere in there to toggle the Invincible state.  You could make your passive skill toggle the stat, then attach a logic group to an always-on UI element, like the HUD, that toggles the Invincible state on the player when said stat is equal to 1, then turn it off when it's = 0.

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