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Author Topic: The "One Project" Idea / Distributed Modding  (Read 933 times)

Offline Phanjam

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The "One Project" Idea / Distributed Modding
« on: August 12, 2018, 03:15:06 AM »
Okay im going to start off this thread with a copy-paste from what i started over in the discord...

PhanjamYesterday at 5:25 PM
dont know if anyone noticed but i asked Potterman over in the Runic discord if he wanted to pursue his "1 project to rule them all" idea (http://torchmodders.com/forums/help-wanted/one-common-project-(to-rule-them-all-)/msg7016/#msg7016)
altho he said he couldnt get into that atm, it got me to thinking...

I look at @Viz 's Variant Classes and @Korzeam 's Variant Pets.  Then i look at projects like @Wolven 🐺 's TL2 Refreshed, or F430's Expanded End Game Content mod, all of @doudley 's great UI mods, or even my idea for a mega-merge of items+author-vendors.

And im thinking the Variants "concept" works well and maybe we should use it when we plan our mods.  How does this relate to Potterman's "one proejct" idea?  Well i think "one project" will never work actually :P but many "variants" might work pretty well (and i was going to suggest this to Potteman)

My idea of expanding the Variants concept is we should have fairly fixed mod "groups" so like...

1. Classes (already have that with Variant Classes)
2. Pets (already have that with Variant Pets)
3. UI (we have tons of those thanks to @doudley lol)
4. Items (biggest ones I know of are RnF's LAO series)

How does mod grouping help?

well like theres one mod type which always, always has conflicts and thats UI mods. RnF's LAO has a UI component, most of doudley's mods are UI mods, Wolvens Refreshed mod has some UI components, etc, etc

so maybe when we make our mods we say "im making an item mod. it would be great if the UI could be (whatever) so i can make a new item unittype. so i'm gonna tell the guys working on Variants UI to put this feature into their mod.  see where im going wth this?

meanwhile over at the Variants UI mod, theyre making the fricking-bestest-ever UI mod that ever was. Has all the features everyone always wants so you dont have to mix-match UI mods and trial-and-error what load order is best for them.  Just use Variants UI and youre gold

and then Variant Items you could go just bat-sh*t crazy here - there are so many items out there but they rarely conflict right? its in their nature - as long as you do the GUIDs and NAMEs thing, your DAT files are always going to be unique!
would love to hear what you guys think ;)

GoblinYesterday at 6:46 PM
Can we have a Variant gamefixes mod also, fixing alot of things in the game not covered by the other mods like armour /hp but wont conflict with the others. Maybe a variant maps also.

PhanjamYesterday at 6:48 PM
ah smaller "qol" mods - absolutley
and maps - i see how that would be excellent, but i dont know enough about levels/maps to appreciate the conflicts issues. but yes, if it can be done that would be really great

GoblinYesterday at 6:49 PM
Well the mappers would be in charge of that, making picking mods really easy for everyone else.
Should be virtually no conflicts done this way.

VizYesterday at 8:16 PM
the fixes should be covered by UA
unless there's some bugs that UA didn't cover
maps sounds like a good idea..

PhanjamYesterday at 10:24 PM
I am curious why TL Essentials is so popular. I think we can "make a better TLE".  Not better because of whats inside, but better because we can solve compatibility issues

VizToday at 12:34 AM
the name being essential certainly helps
and being one of the earliest compilation mods around

steffireToday at 3:36 AM
Truth is that now we have a "one project" hive mind (I mean that in a very good way) where as before when people were transitioning from TL1 to 2 it was more of every one figure out how to use this thing called Guts... "oh you figured out something? cool!". Today we mapped years of advice towards bug fixes, impossible edits, probable work zones to push the frontier of what we can do in TL2 modding. It's more clear today what needs to be worked on and who gets agreed to produce such mod. Good times! :)
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 03:17:07 AM by Phanjam »



Offline Phanjam

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Re: The "One Project" Idea / Distributed Modding
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2018, 03:37:00 AM »
Okay so with the inputs from the original posts, that idea of "mod groups" is looking like...

1. UI
2. QoL
3. Items
4. Levels, Quests
5. Classes
6. Pets

That is loosely in order of likelihood-to-conflict (most to least - would that be right, having Levels and Quests together in Variant-pack?).

When we make mods we dont really have to look into every area to guard againt file conflicts anyway. Grouping the work by mod-type takes advantage of this fact - Variant UI should have few conflicts with Variant Items right off the bat.  But in case there are conflicts, having groups should make it easier to (a) agree how to / who should address the conflict, and for the work to stay focused (prevent burn-out :P )

I'm very interested to learn what we all think of this idea. I like to think of it as the "next best thig to TL3" :D - modded TL2 with all the best content the community has to offer, but with all the pieces put together taking care to remove conflicts."



Offline Aherin

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Re: The "One Project" Idea / Distributed Modding
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2018, 10:47:45 AM »
I love this idea, but a few key questions come to mind. Nothing that too much of a problem, but I think we'd need to make sure we clarify before we start so we don't spend the whole time arguing!

How do we decide what content does and doesn't "make the cut"? ie what level of polish is considered acceptable?

Also how do we deem whether something is useful/useless? ie meets the critera of the mod?

Do we need to consider making sure that we "spread around" the mod contributions to reflect the community or just stick to a small handful of modder friends?

How do we chose between mods that are very similar or serve the same function?
 
Who makes the final decision? Is it a vote? Do we have an all powerful director who calls the shots? :)

Offline Wolven

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Re: The "One Project" Idea / Distributed Modding
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2018, 10:59:17 AM »
I am of course all for this. Cooperation and guidelines for making non conflicting mods would be great.

The problem, in my case is knowledge. I know how to make classes and kills not conflict, but not UI like the inventory modification for my Refreshed mod. So if there where documentation on how to do this, I would follow that.

Another place I don't know how to make non conflicts is regarding SpawnClasses. Like in my mod I've added stuff to the vendors. Making new a new SpawnClass with a unique name is easy, but how to I add my custom SpawnClass in to the original vendor SpawnClass, without making a conflict?

So what this would require is the most important, but also most boring thing to make. Which is documentation and guides. We have a wealth of knowledge between us in this community, but we're really slacking when it comes to documenting it. Most of our knowledge is scattered in forum posts. There's some in the wiki, but it could be so much better.

Now I realize that the choice of wiki might not be optimal and I'd gladly swap it to another one, if that makes it easier. Right now we're using DokuWiki, but setting up MediaWiki should not be much work. If that makes it any easier to write documentation... Maybe a wiki is not the best solution, perhaps there are other solutions which would be better. I'm open for suggestion if anyone has ideas for systems that makes documentation easier and less painful to make.

EDIT: Maybe I misunderstood the purpose and idea behind this project?

Offline Wolven

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Re: The "One Project" Idea / Distributed Modding
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2018, 11:16:06 AM »
I love this idea, but a few key questions come to mind. Nothing that too much of a problem, but I think we'd need to make sure we clarify before we start so we don't spend the whole time arguing!

How do we decide what content does and doesn't "make the cut"? ie what level of polish is considered acceptable?

Also how do we deem whether something is useful/useless? ie meets the critera of the mod?

Do we need to consider making sure that we "spread around" the mod contributions to reflect the community or just stick to a small handful of modder friends?

How do we chose between mods that are very similar or serve the same function?
 
Who makes the final decision? Is it a vote? Do we have an all powerful director who calls the shots? :)

These are good points. Making something like this requires an organized group of collaborators where participants have roles relative to their skills. It also requires "management" and an overall vision and design idea. It would have to function much like a game developer studio, where you have your lead game (mod) designer(s) mappers, UI designers, character designers, graphics designers, etc. All working towards a unified goal and design idea.

Again, I'm not sure I understand the idea correctly. Is the idea to create "yet another mod pack" where you take existing mods and wrap them up together in a non conflicting package. Or is the idea to create a new big mod, which incorporates ideas and designs from existing mods?

Offline steffire3

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Re: The "One Project" Idea / Distributed Modding
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2018, 09:47:57 PM »
One thing that we should consider is where we upload these mods (specifically very large packages which is the answer to provide more content within one mod):

With the One Combined Project: The only real limitation (for Steam specifically) is the 200 Mega Byte limit per mod... otherwise Draco has shown that the Nexus- and also with Viz proving that RG Fansite are both free to allow much higher memory limits which means we could support massive mods that don't require being split into multiple parts on Steam. That is the biggest success of such an agreed project potentially if we want to add items and maps beyond the Steam limit.

Yet by all means do provide a Steam version at least for those who want a slice of what these mods have to offer.

= = =

= = =

I want to take note that LAO III did add new Weapons and Shield varieties that may be of interest merging into lets say- Ruination Mod.
For Socketables I recommend studying this mod: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1200333310&searchtext=reiners

I also have a request that someone (this should be decided by someone who can achieve this so decide carefully) whom can "finish" what Blank's Landmarks and Extra Chunky started since they did not add new map layouts to all the maps.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=139645352&searchtext=chunky
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=143033358&searchtext=blank

I'm including these Advance Wars Maps for future inspiration of layouts:

http://awbw.amarriner.com/prevmaps.php?maps_id=75147
https://www.giantbomb.com/profile/sarumarine/blog/advance-wars-maps-for-all/65737/
https://flyingkirbypub.net/Weekly/Zeron/

And now the descriptions of said mods to better see what potential content is missing:
Worth noting that both Authors claimed to have been employed by Runic so it's a nice nod to their work.

= = =

Extra Chunky seamlessly adds 31 new levels to existing random dungeons for more environmental variety in Torchlight 2. All level chunks are brand new and built to the same specifications and high quality standards as the original game.

* This mod does not edit any original game files. It will not conflict with any other Torchlight 2 mods.

Features:

+ 14 level chunks that can appear randomly in any Catacombs dungeon, like the Corrupted Crypt, Rotting Crypt, or Catacombs maps in the Mapworks.
+ 10 level chunks that can appear randomly in any Generic Caves dungeon, like the Muckery, Icedeep Caverns, or Caves maps in the Mapworks.
+ 6 level chunks that can appear randomly in the Ossean Wastes overworld.
+ 1 level chunk that can appear randomly in any Estherian Shrine dungeon, like the Wellspring Temple, Watchweald Temple, or Estherian Shrine maps in the Mapworks.

If you enjoy this mod please rate it to help more players discover it!

Feel free to use this mod however you want, like including it in a compilation mod or editing the levels to suit your needs, as long as you provide appropriate credit. Preferably with a link back to this mod along with stating what version of it ( the latest is v5 ) you used so people are well informed.

= = =

= = =

Blanks Landmarks adds 29 new levels to the game via new variations of many Landmark chunks throughout Torchlight 2. Landmark chunks are those such as: The Warbeast Armory, and the Slavers Camp and so on. This mod does not alter, or override any of the base files, it simply adds more level variation by adding to the pool of already existing chunks and therefore should be compatible with all other mods.

Features:

ACT 1
+10 New level chunks for the Temple Steppes, and Frosted Hills.
2 New Warbeast Armory chunks
2 New Cemetery chunks
2 New Water Temple chunks
2 New Slavers Camp chunks
2 New Wickers Grove chunks
ACT 2
+19 New level chunks for The Ossean Wastes, and The Salt Barrens in Act 2.
3 New Forsaken Gate chunks
2 New Prison Caravan chunks
1 New The Embercraft chunk
3 New Stygian Aerie Approach chunks
1 New Swarmstacks Entrance chunk
3 New Vault of Souls Entrance chunks
3 New The Witherways Entrance chunks
3 New Genie Dwelling chunks

If you like this mod, please Vote for me so I can keep it at the top!
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 11:10:07 PM by steffire3 »
At this point after playing Torchlight 2 for 4 years original and modded... ignorant of mods and now wise with compatibility... the one thing I value the most-

-is being able to have "support" from the author of any mod.

I think the only advice I can give is that you don't burn yourself out. ^_^

Offline Sch123

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Re: The "One Project" Idea / Distributed Modding
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2018, 10:40:46 PM »
Okay so with the inputs from the original posts, that idea of "mod groups" is looking like...

1. UI
2. QoL
3. Items
4. Levels, Quests
5. Classes
6. Pets
I agree with @Phanjam to make it into "mod groups". Because we can only use 10 Mods. That way, will be more focused.

Maybe it can be started by making "Variant Item Mod", so it will ease the work in the future. ;)
Because there is a lots of items (Weapons, Armors, etc.) are still separated. It would be good if all of that could be combined with no conflict.

Maybe it can be started by taking items in large Mods such as Torchlight II Essential (because he already combined several Mod Items in it), Synergies, FEP, LAO 2-3, Ruination, Noddyngineering, etc.

And keep in mind that Variant class & pet Mod can still be developed more further. I hope it can be even better in the future. :D
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 10:44:06 PM by Sch123 »

Offline steffire3

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Re: The "One Project" Idea / Distributed Modding
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2018, 11:14:57 PM »
Maybe it can be started by making "Variant Item Mod", so it will ease the work in the future. ;)
Because there is a lots of items (Weapons, Armors, etc.) are still separated. It would be good if all of that could be combined with no conflict.

Maybe it can be started by taking items in large Mods such as Torchlight II Essential (because he already combined several Mod Items in it), Synergies, FEP, LAO 2-3, Ruination, Noddyngineering, etc.


We would have to be selective and take specific content out of a mod before merging since adding something like Noddygineering in it's entirety will result in bugs.
I have a similar view towards TL2 Essentials, Synergies, LAO 2-3 and that strange frozen Boss bug whenever Arcana is used with any Overhaul mod.
At this point after playing Torchlight 2 for 4 years original and modded... ignorant of mods and now wise with compatibility... the one thing I value the most-

-is being able to have "support" from the author of any mod.

I think the only advice I can give is that you don't burn yourself out. ^_^

Offline Lord Nyriox

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Re: The "One Project" Idea / Distributed Modding
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2018, 07:00:11 PM »
Just in case any of you might be interested, I thought I would post the results of my Github repository experiments. 

  • TL data files (DAT, LAYOUT, and ANIMATION extensions) must be formatted in UTF-16LE (the default Unicode text format on Windows) for GUTS to properly read them.  Otherwise, the program spits out an error dialog for every improperly-encoded file.
  • Git (and by extension, Github) is incapable of parsing text data more complex than UTF-8.  This means that all TL data files are interpreted as "binary" files in Git-based diffs (such as those used by the Github website).  Needless to say, such Github diffs are effectively meaningless.
  • The method described in [https://stackoverflow.com/a/51612850], does not affect Github diffs for the relevant files.  They are still displayed as "binary" files.
  • The method described in [https://stackoverflow.com/a/16286314]—which converts the relevant files to UTF-8 when uploading, and to UTF-16 when downloading—does work, but it requires significant client-side preparation to be able to download usable files from the repository, as well as upload them.  Note that Github's "download as ZIP" option, also results in a MEDIA directory full of unusable UTF-8 files.
  • To mitigate the client-side difficulties in Point 4, I had experimented with trying to write a Windows batch-script to perform a 1-click conversion of all relevant text-files to UTF-16.  I can confirm that the "iconv" tool does not work in the Windows batch method.  Unfortunately, my computer completely failed while I was trying to find a working alternative.

« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 02:11:27 AM by Lord Nyriox »

Offline doudley

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Re: The "One Project" Idea / Distributed Modding
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2018, 08:32:44 AM »
well like theres one mod type which always, always has conflicts and thats UI mods. RnF's LAO has a UI component, most of doudley's mods are UI mods, Wolvens Refreshed mod has some UI components, etc, etc
Very true.

Is the idea to create "yet another mod pack" where you take existing mods and wrap them up together in a non conflicting package...
I think its just this.

I love this idea, but a few key questions come to mind. Nothing that too much of a problem, but I think we'd need to make sure we clarify before we start so we don't spend the whole time arguing!

How do we decide what content does and doesn't "make the cut"? ie what level of polish is considered acceptable?

Also how do we deem whether something is useful/useless? ie meets the critera of the mod?

Do we need to consider making sure that we "spread around" the mod contributions to reflect the community or just stick to a small handful of modder friends?

How do we chose between mods that are very similar or serve the same function?
 
Who makes the final decision? Is it a vote? Do we have an all powerful director who calls the shots? :)
I think this sums up all the key concern for working on a project like this but I personally don't mind anymore if any of my mods won't make the cut. It was been my dilemma ever since pre-GUTS that my mod (BiA) will never be included or be used with Synergies mod due to pet inventory UI conflict.

Also

Good job to @steffire3 in pointing out the 200mb size limit, that is a very serious concern.

@Phanjam Let be known too that, huge mods specially with added UI contents can break the prioritization of UI elements in-game, i.e. the tooltip UI is being rendered under other UI elements. So maybe having a variant type mod in parts would not be ideal. This is just an assumption, a speculation of mine, I have not really figured out why this happens, as an example: my UI mods + UA mod

And yeah, I'm up for it, to work on some of these projects. So if anyone need my assistance, I'll sure to help whenever I can.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2018, 03:31:45 AM by doudley »

Offline Phanjam

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Re: The "One Project" Idea / Distributed Modding
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2018, 09:01:11 AM »
I am reading everyone's replies and they're making me happy :) I think the feeling is mostly positive and that it's somehow an "important" project.

But even if it's important, the last thing i want is that it will become "not fun" for us to make it! I know everyone has so little time for modding and we do this for the fun of creating and the love of the game, so no way should this project become a burden!

My suggestion is that we:

1. Decide the mod groupings. I'll make the forums/sub-forums to have more organized discussions about...

2. agreeing the main features for each mod-group; the "must have" features almost everyone looks for plus new stuff we might think of;

3. once we agree the features, we write it down as something we all think is the "best balanced design" for that mod-group;

4. Then each of us, according to the time we have and whether something interests us, can contribute in any group.

This is just my idea so that no one "has to" own, or be the leader of, any group. Whoever is the most active in that group is the "natural leader" at that time. And if that person has to go away for a while, the work can still continue because we already wrote down and agreed the "most balanced design".

Also remember this is still mod-merging work, so many of the ideas we agree already exist in other mods. But how we "add value" is in eliminating conflicts or finding ways to make 2 or more features work together which have never worked together before :) and of course adding new stuff which make the mod-group even more useful/fun.

@Aherin to anwer your question about "how" we decide what to include in the merging, I think we need to go "below" the level of mods and be driven by the features that we're after. If we want a feature and it was first made by modder "X" in his "ABC" mod, then we should say so in our credits.  So okay, what features then? Well let's talk about those in the mod-groups.

What do you all think?

(my next post will be about the groupings - i'm thinking "difficulty mods" need to be handled differently / may not fit our OneProject concept...)



Offline steffire3

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Re: The "One Project" Idea / Distributed Modding
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2018, 10:00:54 PM »
@Phanjam : I agree! For me one mod that means much to me is the Ruination mod from Viz. Now I can release it on Steam however I would be interested if various modders could add new weapons to it at any time.

@Sch123 : Your scouting and gathering mod info skill is the best among us. Could you continue to generate more lists of unique functioning Weapons for the mod of Ruination?

For Modders : Consider this mod which could hopefully be fixed (arrows miss targets when shot from slopes and cliffs) and ready to use for battle in game:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=518311085&searchtext=arrow
At this point after playing Torchlight 2 for 4 years original and modded... ignorant of mods and now wise with compatibility... the one thing I value the most-

-is being able to have "support" from the author of any mod.

I think the only advice I can give is that you don't burn yourself out. ^_^

Offline Sch123

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Re: The "One Project" Idea / Distributed Modding
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2018, 04:58:43 AM »
@Sch123 : Your scouting and gathering mod info skill is the best among us. Could you continue to generate more lists of unique functioning Weapons for the mod of Ruination?

Sure, I'm happy if I can help even if it's just a little. ;)

Quote
For Modders : Consider this mod which could hopefully be fixed (arrows miss targets when shot from slopes and cliffs) and ready to use for battle in game:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=518311085&searchtext=arrow

@steffire3 : Maybe you can try Classless Character Mod, because in Rogue the skill "Immolation Ammo" seems to use the same idea as you meant. It's just that this is inserted into the skill not as a normal attack on a weapon. Maybe this could be used as an initial idea to make the arrows look real.

Offline steffire3

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Re: The "One Project" Idea / Distributed Modding
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2018, 10:18:30 AM »
@Sch123 That is a very good idea. @Phanjam may actually have the answer towards weapons with unique functions that act clean without bugs and hit their targets every time.
At this point after playing Torchlight 2 for 4 years original and modded... ignorant of mods and now wise with compatibility... the one thing I value the most-

-is being able to have "support" from the author of any mod.

I think the only advice I can give is that you don't burn yourself out. ^_^

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