Skills Expansion: Bugs Report & Ideas

[doudley]

How about the special fx, which is better?

I think we can compose our own toggle skills by using these two version as reference. What I don't have is dedicated use of GUTS, so we will have to use the existing particle fx/animation or their unit themes. But the effects/affixes, and how the skill is used can be our own.

[Sch123]

How about the special fx, which is better?

Special fx in the Mongol Archer is better.

I think we can compose our own toggle skills by using these two version as reference. What I don't have is dedicated use of GUTS, so we will have to use the existing particle fx/animation or their unit themes. But the effects/affixes, and how the skill is used can be our own.

Awesome, we can create our own version of a toggle skill.

Do you have any ideas for what effects/affixes will be included?

I find there are some good Active & Passive skills in some classes,  I wonder if it can be combined into one and create it as a toggle skill.


Request

Can you replace Elemental Guardian Summoning with Elemental Dragon?

Fire Elemental >> Fire Elemental Dragon (Dragon color: Red)
Ice Elemental >> Ice Elemental Dragon (Dragon color: Blue)
Lighting Elemental >> Lightning Elemental Dragon (Dragon color: Yellow)
Poison Elemental >> Poison Elemental Dragon (Dragon color: Green)

The reason is, because there are already many who use Skill to summoning elemental but rarely summon dragon elements. I think it would be cool if you could call a dragon as a guardian Elemental.

Note:

- If it can be replaced, please make sure the size of the dragon is not too big & if possible it is made to be the size of a human.
- And also please make it so that the summon can only summon one elemental dragons & when it comes to summoning other elemental dragons it will eliminate the previous dragon. So it's not too crowded and also feels OP if all elemental can be summoned.


Intermezzo

If I can presume the fourth class of vanilla is like 4 sacred animals . Each class represents one of them and has Strengths & Weaknesses:

Embermage = Suzaku

Strengths
Focusing on mastering elemental magic

Weaknesses
Lower physical defense

Berserker = Byakko

Strengths
Focuses on the speed & fierce attack

Weaknesses
Not much magic power

Engineer = Genbu

Strengths
Focuses on defense & counter attacks

Weaknesses
Speed and dodge attacks

Outlander = Seiryu

Strengths
Focusing on range attacks that penetrate

Weaknesses
Lower magic defence

[doudley]

I've changed the ember mage toggle skills with mongol archers...however, I find them not appropriately beneficial to vanilla classes. I'm inspired with your idea to make them boost weaknesses into strengths.

While trying to understand the complex toggle system of these new skills, I worry and interested to find out how effective it is. Let me give you the premise of how these skills work.

Main skill simultaneously desummons, remove buffs, and summons an invisible pet that casts an aura to give buffs to any friendly unit who gets hit first (but most likely it would be the player due to the range is 0 to 0.5 and Pet is attached to player, center position). The buff includes a limiter, that way, the unit won't receive the effect in stack (would cause the game to lag if not done).

Here're my concerns, does the skill effectively desummon the invisible pet and does it not effect other summoned pets/minions? The skill does not point out to a specific unit, it just resummon it while attaching an affix to desummon any monsters. Its either my memory in modding is rusty or I just didn't encountered something like this before. As you know, I have a mod that allows summoning another customizable pet and that pet can also have their own pet and summons. It is already very much complex, that's why this toggle skills of mongol archer intrigues me.

Anyway, my back-up:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Q38hURIGYUFzM2xTUIVCbv7KVUtnsfkJ

P.S. I'm not sure about the request to add new effect on General Skills, the bleed effect feels inappropriate for the minions and the potion effectiveness and pet travel time, I think should remain item exclusive bonuses. Otherwise, we're gonna have all the bonus effects in the game's effectslist activated in our general skills. Makeover for the elemental guardians should be our last priority.

[Sch123]

I've changed the ember mage toggle skills with mongol archers...however, I find them not appropriately beneficial to vanilla classes. I'm inspired with your idea to make them boost weaknesses into strengths.

Yes, because it requires a little change and addition to the skill effect so that it can be appropriately beneficial to vanilla classes

While trying to understand the complex toggle system of these new skills, I worry and interested to find out how effective it is. Let me give you the premise of how these skills work.

Main skill simultaneously desummons, remove buffs, and summons an invisible pet that casts an aura to give buffs to any friendly unit who gets hit first (but most likely it would be the player due to the range is 0 to 0.5 and Pet is attached to player, center position). The buff includes a limiter, that way, the unit won't receive the effect in stack (would cause the game to lag if not done).

Here're my concerns, does the skill effectively desummon the invisible pet and does it not effect other summoned pets/minions? The skill does not point out to a specific unit, it just resummon it while attaching an affix to desummon any monsters. Its either my memory in modding is rusty or I just didn't encountered something like this before. As you know, I have a mod that allows summoning another customizable pet and that pet can also have their own pet and summons. It is already very much complex, that's why this toggle skills of mongol archer intrigues me.

Is the method used in the toggle skill bladedancer different from the one in the archer mongol?

Hmmm, when you explained that I also remembered if the toggle skill on the Mongolian was different from the others. Can you also check the toggle skill that is in the Prophet (Variant Class) class, because the skill also has a toggle skill even though it can't be turned off after use.

There are also toggle skills in other classes such as Plaguelord. I think the method used by Plaguelord is similar to that of the Mongol archer.

Note:

I had an idea but it didn't seem good. If the toggle skill is quite complex and problematic, it is possible that instead of making it toggle we can extend the duration of the skill. It does look bad but this might be the last solution to get a long buff. Or make it like the one in the Prophet class, after the skill is active then the skill cannot be turned off (But it can be replaced with other toggle skills).

P.S. I'm not sure about the request to add new effect on General Skills, the bleed effect feels inappropriate for the minions and the potion effectiveness and pet travel time, I think should remain item exclusive bonuses. Otherwise, we're gonna have all the bonus effects in the game's effectslist activated in our general skills. Makeover for the elemental guardians should be our last priority.

My idea is to give a bleed effect to the Pet so that it feels real and gives a little help to the player. Because I see a lack of effect that can support pets. For example, We cannot provide gems or enhance with weapon effects on pets because pet collars & pet tags are armor types.

For makeover for the elemental guardians It should be our last priority, I agree . Because there are still many problems that are far more important than that.


Idea

If you see the skill used by Kensei class (Cold Steel, Heat of the Forge, Storm Blade) I think the effect of the skill is suitable to be used as toggle skills.

But on the Cold Steel effect & Heat of the Forge which when killing enemies, the enemy will explode. Can it be made so that when the enemy explodes the surrounding enemies are affected (like burn, and frozen)?

For Heat of the Forge skills may be it can be combined with skills from Monster Hunter - "Heavy Support". It would be cool if we were supported with missiles when we attacked the enemy and would explode when they hit the enemy. For explosion animations can be taken from Mongol Archer - "Exploding Arrow"

[Sch123]

Other toggle methods:

There are also other methods such as those used in the Theolentist class that have the skill to deactivate buff skills "Dispell Auras". I think that method can be done but with a little adjustment. Rather than making the skill separate it is better if the skill is inserted into the buff skill so that it will be like a toggle skill. Like giving a command switch 1 & 2. The first switch will turn on the skill and the second switch will turn off the skill

[doudley]

TEST BUILD Ver 10

1) Wardrobe Features

Spoiler

Total Skin: Male (60) / Female (48)
Total Hair Style: Male (43) / Female (37)
Total Hair Color: Male (55) / Female (55)

1.a) Fixed Male Skins codes, #1 skin is now #1 and #44 has been removed because there's no value linked to that number.

2) Tempest skill's original code says to target self, changed it to target target. That could fix it...

3) Thunder Strike's original code says to make damage on each event trigger, I've changed it to make damage on each unit hit. That could fix it...

4) Spirit of Death skill have been fixed, included missing custom textures.

5) Pool of Death skill have been fixed, corrected the directory link of the included texture before.

6) Root of Death / Life skill have been fixed, found and included the missing (unit theme) particle of the summoned snakes / vines.

7.) Asura skill's animation have been fixed, as it turns out, the original skill has messed with the animation data, so added a new animation data "Special_Asura" intended to have vanishing effect and untargettable during the animation.

8.) Ember Mage Toggle Skills: Changed from Blade Dancer to Mongol Archer


@Sch123 I'm sorry but I only compiled the current state of the mod. All of your input looks interesting and I agree that I need look for other toggle skills system but I have to get back to you about all of these next week. I do feel like the best toggle skills is your idea of giving the class a boost to make their weaknesses as strengths.

Also, now that you explained to me the bleed effect is for the pets & minions, I like it.

And yes, blade dancer's toggle skills are simpler, it is just a simple overwrite of effects. Like for example, activate skillA you will receive 100% of buff1 and 0% of buff2 then if activate skillB you will receive 0% of buff1 and 100% of buff2.

[Sch123]

@Sch123 I'm sorry but I only compiled the current state of the mod. All of your input looks interesting and I agree that I need look for other toggle skills system but I have to get back to you about all of these next week. I do feel like the best toggle skills is your idea of giving the class a boost to make their weaknesses as strengths.

It's okay, I also can do more testing, because we also need to fix the remaining problems before working on the others. Because later it will be complicated if the old problem is not fixed.

Anyway with this I have time to think about on toggling skills. What method is suitable, what animation aura (particle fx) is good, and what kind of skill effects will be given.

Also, now that you explained to me the bleed effect is for the pets & minions, I like it.

Yup, because of the lack of attention to the ability that can help strengthen the pet, I propose that effect so that it can help the pet a little stronger.

And yes, blade dancer's toggle skills are simpler, it is just a simple overwrite of effects. Like for example, activate skillA you will receive 100% of buff1 and 0% of buff2 then if activate skillB you will receive 0% of buff1 and 100% of buff2.

You are right, the method used by Bladedancer is more simple.
Hmm, is it possible to make it so that when we activate the same skill (which is currently active) the skill will disappear?
Maybe that way the skill problem that can't be turned off can be overcome.

[Sch123]

Test Update Ver 10:

- Wardrobe Features:

I found a strange bug that had never happened before in the previous version.

There seems to be a problem with the Hair style Male. I think it's a little different from the previous one (the order of hairstyles is different). Also it looks like its head & neck is open.

Male Hair style:

Embermage: 25-41
Berserker: 24-39
Engineer: 24-39
Outlander: 28-30

For Female I don't think there is a problem.

- Tempest skill:

It seems like this method didn't work, lightning still didn't strike enemies around the players.

By making it to the target-target, we have to have a target to cast the Tempest skill. I personally prefer the previous way, which without having to depend on the target to cast.

- Thunder Strike:

In "Tier 3" we will get an additional effect where we have the opportunity to cast lightning on the surrounding enemy repeatedly (in a certain duration), unfortunately lightning does not give damage but only makes enemy stun from strike.

- Spirit of Death:

Thank you, it's good now

I want to ask, has the bonus tier effect been given? because I do not get it that tier bonus effect.

- Pool of Death:

Thank you, it's good now

- Root of Death / Life:

Skill is working well it's just It still looks weird.

- Asura skill:

It seems like this method didn't work, Asura still didn't vanish & the skill seems incomplete (some are cut off).

- Ember Mage Toggle Skills: Changed from Blade Dancer to Mongol Archer

Running smoothly, I like the "Aura" particles


Maybe you can consider replacing Tempest & Asura skills with other skills.

- Tempest >> Tempest Sword (Double Agent - Sword Rain) "Variant Class Mod"
- Asura >> Asura Warth (Dragonlord - Burning Swipe) "Draconic Mod"

[doudley]

Yeah, I rearranged the wardrobe features and forgot update the unit data of the male classes.

The tempest skill is now fixed (finally), I found a missing piece of the skill, which is the missile unit from summoned invisible pet skill.

I think the thunder strike is also fixed. Included the missing stat data "Character Dexterity" on which the chidori storm (tier 3) effect get its damage multiplier.

Sorry to mislead you, I haven't implemented the tiers of the Spirit of Death yet.

Can you explain why the root of death/life still looks weird?

Yeah, I made a custom animation for asura but forgot to include the link in its skill data...
(It really won't work without that.... )

Let's use this toggle skill as bases, you can conceptualize which effects should they apply. Maybe I should add a visual indicator for the summoned invisible pets so that you would know if it is really unsummoned or not?

[Sch123]

Yeah, I rearranged the wardrobe features and forgot update the unit data of the male classes.

I was shocked when I wanted to test it, I saw his head open. At first glance it didn't look, but when I looked back there were several heads & necks open. Thank God! you've found the cause. It feels scary if you look too long.

The tempest skill is now fixed (finally), I found a missing piece of the skill, which is the missile unit from summoned invisible pet skill.

It seems like there are also many skills that use an invisible pet as a trigger for skills.

I think the thunder strike is also fixed. Included the missing stat data "Character Dexterity" on which the chidori storm (tier 3) effect get its damage multiplier.

Right, on the chidori storm (tier 3) the enemy is hit by a lightning strike but no damage is given to the enemy, as if the enemy is immune to lightning. In fact, because the enemy is not hit, the enemy's HP is not reduced and instead the enemy is hit by a stun from repeated lightning strikes.

For me it's not so problematic with HP the enemy doesn't reduce because of the lightning strike instead they gets a stun effect repeatedly from repeated lightning strikes. It's just that it feels weird if you get struck by lightning and you don't get damage / die because of it.

Can you explain why the root of death/life still looks weird?

When I use the root life / death skill, the root does not appear. Instead the ones that appear are white squares.

Yeah, I made a custom animation for asura but forgot to include the link in its skill data...
(It really won't work without that.... )

Luckily you have found the cause.

Let's use this toggle skill as bases, you can conceptualize which effects should they apply. Maybe I should add a visual indicator for the summoned invisible pets so that you would know if it is really unsummoned or not?

Ok then, I will try to make a list of what effects will be put into the toggle skill.

[Sch123]

I made a list for Toggle Skill. I think it's quite interesting, because toggle skills consist of several skills taken from several different classes.

- 3 Toggle Skill base from Mongol Archer
- 3 Toggle Animation Aura from Mongol Archer
- Effect Skill from several different classes (Kensei "FEP+", Monk "Variant Class", Ninja "FEP+", Mongol Archer "FEP+")

At every toggle skill I made it to have Elemental and Weakness Booster inside it. If something is missing, maybe you can add it especially to the Weakness Booster..

[See Attachments for more detail]

[Phanjam]

@doudley and @Sch123 thank you guys for all the hardwork!

[doudley]

Thanks @Phanjam and happy birthday! I'm pretty busy these days, I wont be able to complete this mod quite easily. Although I'm eager to continue working on it, as soon as I'm able.

[steffire3]

I'm sorry I've been away for 4 months since Life priorities took me outside for awhile however I have returned... 'cause I like this community and the people in it! 

Anyway I'm currently having to reorient myself on where I was on these projects. Fortunately I've taken care of my return on both Steam and Discord so this place is next.

Now I'm going to go play Skills Expansion and find out what you guys have been doing. 

I have been communicating with @Sch123 {Literally saves mod development. I request @doudley that we give Sch123 some serious credit for all the testing and requests made to Skills Expansion and elsewhere if need be!  }

UPDATE: Thanks for posting our conversation below @Sch123 !! I will have to play the latest version of the mod before I can comment further on the Skills.

[Sch123]

Hi @steffire3

I will post what we discuss, I hope you don't mind.
In case if @doudley wants to know what we are discussing, it can be seen here.

Spoiler

Thanks very much @Sch123 !! 

Since I've just returned- I still need to reorient myself. Fortunately I have done that over on Steam and Discord in the past few days. Only this place remains. 

I have to read the cjanges with Skill's Expansion however I trust the Added Skills in your combined hands with Doudley.

My personal focus is whether you feel that the Aegis Tree in the Engineer has enough damage power to carry a player on just a Shield Bash Build or Fire Shield?

I remember the other year I asked Corley to mod the damage numbers in the Aegis Tree and it was effective. Basically double the damage output from certain Skills.

It's not just the Aegis Engineer. This includes Skills like Embermage Frost Phase and Outlander Poison Breath. Anyway I don't want to interrupt the current process.

Just some thoughts I've had in the last few months. Sorry for being so last minute on these things...  Thanks again! 

Hi Steff

By the way, I just heard from Doudley that it seems like he only had time in April.

For the problem of less damage to the Aegis Tree in the Engineer & Skills like Embermage Frost Phase and Outlander Poison Breath, I think it can be overcome by giving a more skill point to the General Skill tree to add damage to our attack. What do you think?
I'm afraid if we add more damage it will be too OP, but I needs further testing to be more certain.

Thank you for continuing this conversation.  When we do agree on certain designs then we shall write it onto the Skills Expansion Forums here to inform everyone including Doudley if he feels the need to read it.

I enjoy your ideas and would agree except I've gotten other requests over the years too.  Some people enjoy the 15 point limit on General skills. However if Doudley and you feel that more power should be added with more GS points then yes. Otherwise I do remember Doudley already balanced the GS to be where it is now so I'm not sure he wants to redo it again.

Again my focus is brought back to the Original Skill re-balancing. For me everything else is in a good position so far. Again the Added Skills are coming along well.

So one OS Tree Rebalance at a time: Aegis Tree: I have used the vanilla Shield Bash {do you know if it's been changed in SE? I need to play this mod again to know } and Runic Games seems to have intended it as a Support Skill...

Well that doesn't fly with me! 

In Vanilla: I've used the Aegis Tree in Tarroch's Tomb on the hardest settings on the final enemies and it was woefully under performing compared to anything in the Blitz or Construction Trees.
The Grenades could also use a damage increase. These don't scale with Strength however they do scale with Focus.

Thanks for your time!