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Author Topic: Skills Expansion: Rebalanced Native Skills  (Read 7436 times)

Offline Viz

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Skills Expansion: Rebalanced Native Skills
« on: May 17, 2017, 10:13:36 AM »
And about skill rebalance..

Some skill that could use a nerf
- Prismatic Bolt
- Fire Brand/Ice Brand/Lightning Brand
- Glaive Throw
- Venomous Hail

skills that could use some buff
- entire Storm skill tree of Embermages except Prismatic Bolt
- Stormclaw
- Savage Rush
- Rapid Fire (either cut the mana cost or increase dps%)

Offline doudley

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Re: Skills Expansion: Rebalanced Native Skills
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2017, 12:47:06 AM »
Phase 2 of this mod project.

The idea is to rebalance the 4 original classes by changing their skills to be more suitable for deeper builds and better themed with the newly added skill sets.

There are issues though, "rebalance" is a very subjective term.

I wanted to be sure that we will proceed for "Fair" and not "Preferred".

To make this process a bit more objective and concise, I propose for a single-oriented goal:

Default


Choose Neutralization


Choose Complimentary


Which path to take would be decided by steffire3 but anyone is free to give their view.

Suggestions for mod users should also be commented here. Thanks! :)
« Last Edit: July 09, 2017, 03:12:17 AM by doudley »

Offline Viz

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Re: Skills Expansion: Rebalanced Native Skills
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2017, 03:11:19 PM »
Complimentary sounds good.

also a proposed changes, will post more if necessary

Outlander
Spoiler
Blade Pact
debuff : -36% to Physical Armor > -36% to All Armor

Bramble Wall
increased HP, idk if its possible to do it % instead of flat HP

Shadowmantle
- increased skill duration but tone down the reflect and blind chance

Shadowling Brute
- change it to proc on hit rather than on kill, tone down the proc chance

Berserker
Change the chargebar effect : +100% crit > +50% crit and +25% attack speed or crit damage

Embermage
Change the chargebar effect : -100% mana cost > -50% mana cost and +25% cast speed

Engineer
- Either 1) Nerf Forcefield or 2) Reduce or remove the innate -25% damage taken passive

« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 03:20:40 PM by Viz »

Offline doudley

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Re: Skills Expansion: Rebalanced Native Skills
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2017, 02:10:38 AM »
These are very helpful Viz, more proposed changes would be awesome!

Honestly, if you are only on Steam, you and steffire3 might be working together directly on this, you guys seems to view these stuff much closer than I and you have more experience on class skills than I am too. That way I could focus on additional 2 skills for each skill tree much quicker. ;)

I think Bramble Wall can be increased by HP % if inserted with a new affix that affects the summoned pets (walls)

For the engineer, I choose nerf Forcefield rather than removed their -25% to all damage taken. This melee_damage_bonus effect was intended for both engineer and berserker exclusively, so that they will be differentiated from long range classes like the other two, outlander and embermage. If we remove that effect on engineer then I will propose to remove it from berserker also, thus neutralized.


Offline Viz

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Re: Skills Expansion: Rebalanced Native Skills
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2017, 04:48:58 AM »
Well, we can always have a discussion at the Discord server. Ask steffire to drop by.
Here's more proposed changes.

Outlander
Spoiler
Glaive Throw
- Scale down the interrupt chance across all level, change the damage into physical damage or scales based on weapon DPS.
And reduce the cast range, cast speed and rebound range.

Tangling Shot
- It's usually a 1-point-wonder, so.. increase the poison damage, as an incentive to get higher level? idk

Rapid Fire
- Halved mana cost across all level

Shotgun Mastery
- This skill makes Rapid Fire OP, which you can perma knockback and blind nearly every bosses.. to death.
Tone down the knockback and add a low chance for blind resistance.

What it does is that every hit adds a low blind resist buff to monster, stacking it until it reaches 100% and gets reset after a short duration. But I'm not sure if the duration gets refreshed at every hit or not.
If it does, then it might pose a problem..as the blind resist buff won't go away. Thus rendering this changes useless.

Bane Breath
- This skill is a bit quirky on Outlander. I see Outlander as a ranged character while this skill requires you to be in melee range
A simple damage buff and increased cast speed would work, but I'd like to see something different.

Shadowshot
- Homing effect for the projectiles

Venomous Hail
- Swap tier 2 and tier 3 effects
- Increased cooldown to 3 seconds at tier 3

Sandstorm
- Move tier 1 bonus to tier 3
- New tier 1 effect : Increased range to 40m
- New tier 2 effect : Throws another glaive, so you get 2 whirlwinds in one cast

will post changes for other class later
« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 10:55:12 AM by Viz »

Offline Phanjam

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Re: Skills Expansion: Rebalanced Native Skills
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2017, 11:58:02 AM »
Honestly, if you are only on Steam, you and steffire3 might be working together directly on this, you guys seems to view these stuff much closer than I and you have more experience on class skills than I am too. That way I could focus on additional 2 skills for each skill tree much quicker. ;)

@doudley and @steffire3 , speaking from experience I agree with doudley your project will go faster if there are more people doing coding :P You might want to divide the work into groups of skills and "assign" (more or less) these groups to people.

Right now I'm just a little busy because of the TL1CP update we're trying to finish. but I would be happy to help as soon as we finish and I have more time.

Meanwhile pls start aking your coding questions already - if it's just answering questions and giving tips and hints, we always find time for that ;)



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Re: Skills Expansion: Rebalanced Native Skills
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2017, 08:38:54 AM »
Here's the proposed changes for Embermage

Spoiler
Elemental Boon
- Increase skill duration to 60 sec

Frost Phase
- Increase teleport range

Hailstorm
- Increase cast speed but remove the Electric debuff

Thunder Locus
- Implement the Electric debuff from Hailstorm, increase the thunderstrike attack rate and damage.

Shockbolts
-It's a tier 6 skill but with terrible damage and utility compared to other skills.
I could suggest a rework based on another mod in rgf, if you don't mind.

Shocking Orb
- Slight homing effect, and make it scales on weapon DPS

Arc Beam
- Double the weapon DPS % and increase the laser range.

Fire Brand/Ice Brand/Lightning Brand
- Nerf the damage by 20-30%

Prismatic Bolt
- Nerf the damage by 20-30% or completely remove the poison damage.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 04:08:53 PM by Viz »

Offline steffire3

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Re: Skills Expansion: Rebalanced Native Skills
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2017, 12:35:24 PM »
@Viz I like your suggestions!

Here are some proposals I made over on "Steam".


Spoiler
This next plan expands the rebalancing of percentage themes while not "nerfing" them since the player can invest in "General Skills" to make up the difference.

= = =

Engineer:
Construction: Fire and Spark:
Rename as: Firespark Force:

Fire
Electric
Physical

Ranks: 1-14: 3-42%
Rank 15: 50%

"The Spark to gain energy from Fire, and Force to recycle things."

= = =

Berserker
Tundra: Cold Storm Mastery:

Physical
Ice
Electric

Ranks: 1-14: 3-42%
Rank 15: 50%

= = =

Outlander
Sigil: Master of the Elements:
Rename as: Elemental Cunning:

Ice
Fire
Poison

Ranks: 1-14: 3-42%
Rank 15: 50%

"Your expertise with cunning enables you to deal more damage with crafty elements."

The reason for this suggestion is given in the next spoiler:

Spoiler
In my latest requests, the elements are available as follows:

Type = Classes
(Explanation).

Ice = 3
Electric = 3
Fire = 3

(There is a 3 way pairing between the Outander, Engineer and Berserker).

Poison = 2
Physical = 2

(This defines which classes are more "Fighter" and which ones are more "Scholar").

= =

The Engineer will still favor Fire for DPS and Electric for "Focus" even after we add some DPS to it's Electric options while Physical will be a limited yet strong option.

Berserkers will have plenty of strong Ice options and good Physical options while having new access to a few useful Electric options.

Outlanders now have a solid selection between Poison and Fire while now open to use excellent Ice options.

Embermages have limited yet strong Poison options and the widest selection of the other elements minus Physical.

= = =

Yet the Berserker has Electric options that the Engineer does not have and the Outlander can use the "Inferno and Warfare Skills" in ways that the Embermage cannot.

And that is due to the wonderful fact that the classes only have one shared tree per class.

It works out quite well! ^_^

I made another suggestion about making the Outlander Sigil Skills deal more with Ice:

Spoiler
Some "Ice" added to:
Outlander: Sigil Skills:
= = =

Shadowshot:
Changes:
Inflicts % of weapon DPS as Ice Damage.
Tiers: 5, 10, 15% chance to cast Glacial Spike.

Bane Breath:
Changes:
Extend Range,
Add Ice Damage equal to it's native Poison Damage,
Minions deal Ice damage instead of Physical Damage.

Repulsion Hex:
Changes:
Tiers now deal 10, 20, 30% to Immobilize foes for 5 seconds.

Shadowling Brute:
Changes:
Deals Ice Damage instead of Physical Damage.
Extend Duration to 5 minutes.
Tier 1: Gain Dash and Leap.
Tier 2: Attack Rate +50%.
Tier 3: 10% chance to cast Glacial Spike.

Shadowling Oil:
Changes:
1-15% chance on Hit to Spawn Shadowling Ally.
Minions now deal Ice Damage instead of Physical Damage.

I also ask if it's possible to change the Electric (Shocked) Effect:

Spoiler
Is it possible to change how the "Electric (Shocked) Effect" works?

Besides shooting it's original 3 aimless bolts of energy, also make it:

"50% chance to cast Lightning from target".

The Link provided below leads to a mod that improves the "Shockbolts" Skill:


The following Link leads to a mod that addresses the very serious issue concerning a lack of viable methods to gain any large amount of "X% of All Damage Reduction".

Spoiler
Cthon's Armor Fix Mod[clockworkcore.org]
http://clockworkcore.org/modindex.html

Feedback is appreciated! We want this mod to provide players with more balanced options and diverse builds.

Spoiler
Should we add 1-15% DPS to skills that don't offer much to Strength Users?
Should we also add 1-15 (+X Ave Equip Level) Flat Damage for skills that don't offer much to Focus Users?

 :)
« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 01:41:27 PM by steffire3 »
At this point after playing Torchlight 2 for 3 years original and modded... ignorant of mods and now wise with compatibility... the one thing I value the most-

-is being able to have "support" from the author of any mod.

I think the only advice I can give is that you don't burn yourself out. ^_^

Offline doudley

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Re: Skills Expansion: Rebalanced Native Skills
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2017, 03:35:51 PM »
@Viz
Thank you, thank you for being game on this project, you are officially a collaborator (if that's okay with you).

@steffire3
I think Viz has a much better hindsight with class skills' workarounds than my vapid execution of code changes. Solidify the rebalance as much as you can.

@Phanjam
Thank you and the concern is much appreciated. :)

@Everyone
I'm curious to see how these skill changes will go and how well its going to be planned out. I just published my remod for AG's dungeon challenge and I still got my UI mod to post next. ;D After that I want to fulfill a request about a remod of pet shop and an update for BiA: warbounds. :D I hope by then, rebalance is solid for massive coding!

Offline Viz

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Re: Skills Expansion: Rebalanced Native Skills
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2017, 04:48:19 AM »
Uhm wait, why do Outlander needs to have Ice damage?  :o

If I understand correctly, you want more damage option for each classes to promote build diversity.
It's nice to have another damage supported for each classes, but thematically, it doesn't fit the class.

Personally I viewed each class to have their own damage themes and I wish that we doesn't stray from what Runic has intended for them.

Spoiler
Embermage
Main - Fire/Ice/Electric
Secondary - Summon/Poison (Prismatic Bolt)

Berserker
Main - Physical/Ice
Secondary - Electric/Summon

Engineer
Main - Fire/Electric/Physical/Summon

Outlander
Main - Poison/Fire/Physical/Summon

But if you insist on your ideas, I understand and will go along with it.  :)
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 05:03:14 AM by Viz »

Offline steffire3

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Re: Skills Expansion: Rebalanced Native Skills
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2017, 10:56:20 AM »
@Viz I knew those Icelanders would be questionable.  :D

It's nothing more than a suggestion, I have to consider the fact that some players will not want Ice to replace Physical Outlander Skill Damage.

We can always just have "Elemental Cunning" boost Physical Damage at Rank 15 by 50% and keep "Ice Damage Boosts" only available on 2 Classes total.

Everything else matches your description yet it's a question of whether "Elemental Boost" Skills should have asymmetrical boosts or symmetrical ones.

In other words:

Do Outlanders keep their max 60% Poison Damage Boost or will it be lowered to 50% max and will Fire Damage Boost be raised to the same percentage?

A similar question can be asked for the Engineer and Berserker as well.

Spoiler
Doudley wanted to know if we should include the Chthon's Armor Fix Mod?
I am in favor of it for players who will not use "LAO III" yet still want Armor to boost their important "+X% All Damage Reductions".
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 11:02:14 AM by steffire3 »
At this point after playing Torchlight 2 for 3 years original and modded... ignorant of mods and now wise with compatibility... the one thing I value the most-

-is being able to have "support" from the author of any mod.

I think the only advice I can give is that you don't burn yourself out. ^_^

Offline Viz

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Re: Skills Expansion: Rebalanced Native Skills
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2017, 02:17:35 PM »
maybe we could make Elemental Cunning like..
Spoiler
60% Poison
60% Fire
30% Physical
and the Ice and Electric boost should be removed to avoid being OP


While Berserker Cold Storm Mastery could be like
Spoiler
60% Physical
60% Electric
30% Ice
since Ice can get plenty of boost from Shatter Storm

Armor Fix sounds pretty good. Implement it  ;)

Also.. I noticed that you buffed the Monster Mastery tier bonuses even further. I tested the 'health stolen to master' and it doesn't seemed to work properly. I think the 'health stolen on hit' is pretty OP. If the 'health stolen to master' works, that's even more broken, right..? Since you technically gets +400 health on every hit.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 02:26:07 PM by Viz »

Offline doudley

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Re: Skills Expansion: Rebalanced Native Skills
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2017, 02:51:02 PM »
Armor Fix sounds pretty good. Implement it  ;)
Cool! I think I'll add this soon along with LMB skills and general skills fix.

Also.. I noticed that you buffed the Monster Mastery tier bonuses even further. I tested the 'health stolen to master' and it doesn't seemed to work properly. I think the 'health stolen on hit' is pretty OP. If the 'health stolen to master' works, that's even more broken, right..? Since you technically gets +400 health on every hit.
steffire3 thoughtfully considered how Monster Mastery would work on my human companion mods, that's why we included the tier effect "health stolen to master" in it. It is not meant for the player's benefit.

EDIT:
@Viz
But yeah, I think its wise to just simply remove that transfer to master effect not only it adds confusion, it also would be OP when used by human companions.

These pet exclusive effects made me realize that their purpose have been inaccessible in my human companion mods because I designed them to not be able to wear collars and studs.  :-\
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 06:00:59 AM by doudley »

Offline Viz

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Re: Skills Expansion: Rebalanced Native Skills
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2017, 04:07:33 PM »
Alright, if that's the case then its all good. I'll suggest Berserker changes sometime later.

Offline steffire3

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Re: Skills Expansion: Rebalanced Native Skills
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2017, 06:06:42 AM »
We will be making 2 versions of this mod for:

Vanilla

and

Synergies

So we will have 2 different versions with appropriate power levels.

Thank you for your support!
At this point after playing Torchlight 2 for 3 years original and modded... ignorant of mods and now wise with compatibility... the one thing I value the most-

-is being able to have "support" from the author of any mod.

I think the only advice I can give is that you don't burn yourself out. ^_^

 

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