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Author Topic: TL1CP passives  (Read 245 times)

Offline F430

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TL1CP passives
« on: December 05, 2018, 02:51:11 AM »
I know I am way late to this party, but I've only just started using this mod, and grats and thanks to all authors, for it's a great mod and brings a lot of fresh air into the game, which isn't something I thought I would ever say about class packs.

I've been digging around mod data, initially to find out whether there would be conflicts with mods that I'm currently using, and found some skills that don't appear in the game.
By the look of things, some of them are based on tomes/scrolls like crit/barter/block, while the rest consists of things like defense magic, charms, max HP, all of them converted into skills. Thing is, they're nowhere to be found in the game so far, not as scrolls, not in vendors, not in the classes themselves.
My question is this: are these supposed to be accessible in any way, or are they scrapped/incomplete/otherwise not there and not something to worry about?

Oh and sorry if this is the wrong board for this sort of question but I thought I'd just drop it in the hub forum for TL1CP.

Offline Phanjam

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Re: TL1CP passives
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2018, 09:27:49 AM »
Hi @F430 ! good to see you back here!

Off the top of my head I would say those are EFFECTS available, but rarely/never used in skills, in the vanilla game.

To be able to answer more definitively, could you name some of these skills and the EFFECTS in them that are baffling, so I can have a look inside and let you know?



Offline F430

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Re: TL1CP passives
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2018, 03:51:14 PM »
Hi @Phanjam thanks, and happy birthday btw!

Right, so the thing with those is that they are there as mod data but don't seem to exist in the actual mod.
I'm talking about these:
https://i.imgur.com/4pzISUo.png

And this is one of the files:
https://i.imgur.com/REpJamT.png

My confusion is whether those passives, which clearly look like they're fully set-up, are available in the mod/game, and if they are, how are the accessible?

Offline Anarch16sync

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Re: TL1CP passives
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2018, 11:57:50 AM »
@F430 Those passives are left overs from when the classes had the shared passives from the original TL, in later updates those were removed in favor of more unique passives. As you say the skills are working but not implemented in the mod.
I'm doing a clean up of the TL1CP files, so in a later update the mod will only contain what it needs to. And those old passives should be gone then.

Offline F430

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Re: TL1CP passives
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2018, 04:39:09 PM »
Perfect, thanks for clearing that up.
I've said this already but I'm having a blast with the pack. It's technical, it's balanced, it's really well polished overall. Nothing is overpowered and everything has a use; nothing feels out of place, especially passives and additional skills, since I recall there were a few[?] skills that were brand new to fill the 7+3 skills gaps from original game, but I didn't play TL1 so I might be talking out of my backside...

That aside, was is it difficult bringing those classes over to TL2?
I'm imagining it definitely wasn't a matter of "let's just port the existing assets, remake skills/animations and hack together some appropriate data to tape it all together". If that were the case, the mod wouldn't have taken ~3 years to develop and wouldn't feel as complete as it is.

TL;DR should have used this class mod earlier, big thanks to all of its creators <3

Offline Phanjam

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Re: TL1CP passives
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2018, 12:26:29 AM »
Thanks v much @F430 ! I'll let you in on a (not so) secret - it actually did take almost 3 years to complete :D !



Offline F430

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Re: TL1CP passives
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2018, 12:48:20 AM »
Well @Phanjam you know what they say about things taking time.
Anywho, I don't want to create yet another thread, and this is sort of related so here goes.

I got one question about a thing I've been pondering for a very long time, and one that's come up with another modder: soundbanks.

Obviously some data can only exist once, like EFFECTSLIST.DAT or GLOBALS.DAT, other data may be mixed to some weird results depending on mod load order, like dungeon/town layouts with custom NPCs.
But how do soundbanks work exactly? I don't imagine 2 different mods, both of them adding entries to MEDIA/SOUNDS/SKILLS.DAT, would cooperate with each other. Unless they do, in which case say so and my problem is solved.

So just to quickly reiterate: if different mods modify stock soundbanks in different ways, what will be the result? Load order-dependent overwrite -or- cumulative changes, ie both edits take effect and nothing is lost.

Offline Phanjam

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Re: TL1CP passives
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2018, 05:11:28 AM »
Fortunately sound defiitions*can* be merged in from separate files! (I think spawnclass entries are like that too).

So u can define a soundbank with category SKILLS in a separate .DAT file and the game will read it in along with stuff rom the vanilla files. Just follow the same file structure in your mod's DAT as whats in the vanilla files.

Ive made mods with a single sound .DAT file with all the sounds for the mod, even with mixed up categories. Works ok :D



Offline Phanjam

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Re: TL1CP passives
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2018, 06:18:15 AM »
Quote from: F430
I'm imagining it definitely wasn't a matter of "let's just port the existing assets, remake skills/animations and hack together some appropriate data to tape it all together". If that were the case, the mod wouldn't have taken ~3 years to develop
Sorry i misread ur post / u already noted it did take almost 3 years.

But the process u described is pretty much it, at least at the start. What took much longer was balancing it all for a TL2 setting. Then the all-new skills took long as well; we conceptualized a lot of new ones then agonized over which ones should really go in. Then balanced those too.

Lastly there were the TL1 armors! Theyre actually not yet done to this day (almost ready to help u there @Anarch16sync !)

 Youre right. To do anything well takes time.



Offline F430

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Re: TL1CP passives
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2018, 07:54:53 AM »
So u can define a soundbank with category SKILLS in a separate .DAT file and the game will read it in along with stuff rom the vanilla files. Just follow the same file structure in your mod's DAT as whats in the vanilla files.
It's way late and it took me ages to read into this properly.
To reiterate what you're saying with a random example: make a new soundbank group called AA_SKILLS.DAT, add "SKILLS" category inside it, save, it's ready to use. Is that correct?

And final question just to make sure I got this figured out once and for all.
Simple scenario for you: mod A uses custom audio, declares it in SKILLS.DAT by adding a few more categories. Mod B also uses SKILLS.DAT and adds a few categories of its own. Categories and files are unique across both mods, no dupes etc.
What happens when mod A is loaded above mod B in the mod loader. Are changes from mod B lost because it's below mod A and because both mods use/modify the same file, even though said file is modified in a different way?

The reason I'm asking this is because a lot of mods out there that adds custom audio rely on vanilla sound group .dat files, hardly any of the mods, to my knowledge at least, make new groups [.dat files].
TL1CP is half-exception with this; it adds its own sound controller, but also modifies stock game data with redundant entries that are already in the custom group, ie. everything the mod adds to SKILLS.DAT is already in SKILLS_TL1CP.DAT as standalone data. There might be a valid reason for it, but that escapes me at the moment.

Once again, it's late, coffee wore off, so I'm sorry if this dribble makes barely any sense, but I just want to know how the game treats unique edits across mods.

Offline Phanjam

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Re: TL1CP passives
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2018, 12:00:30 PM »
Quote from: F430
...what you're saying with a random example: make a new soundbank group called AA_SKILLS.DAT, add "SKILLS" category inside it, save, it's ready to use. Is that correct?
Well yeah, but my point about the internal structure being the same is important to repeat.  That structure being...

Code: [Select]
[SOUNDDATA]
[SOUND]
<STRING>CATEGORY:Skills
<STRING>NAME:GroundShockwave
<BOOL>LOOPS:0
<FLOAT>VOLUME:0.6
<FLOAT>VOLUMEVARIATION:0.1
<FLOAT>FREQUENCYVARIATION:2345
<FLOAT>RADIUS:12
<INTEGER64>GUID:4315959026107486686
[FILES]
<STRING>FILE:media/sounds/skill/slamshockwave.wav
[/FILES]
[/SOUND]
[/SOUNDDATA]

This is from the vanilla SKILLS.DAT.  Your custom .DAT file has to use this same coding convention for the game to read it in.  And like other .DAT files, its important that your custom definition have <STRING>NAME: and the <INTEGER64>GUID: values which are unique from anything else in the game.

Once you've got it coded up proper like this, you can call the sound into say a skill's .LAYOUT file using its GUID.  If youre calling your sound from an animation definition in some .ANIMATION file, you can call it by its NAME.

Quote from: F430
What happens when mod A is loaded above mod B in the mod loader. Are changes from mod B lost because it's below mod A and because both mods use/modify the same file, even though said file is modified in a different way?
That is correct. The game decides based on filename; it reads-in the files based on load order and if it encounters the same filename again it ignores it. 

Some files as youve already noted cannot get around this (globals.dat, etc) because you cannot "add to" its dataset by reading from other files even if they have the same internal structure, categories, etc.  But sound definition and spawnclass .DATs *can* merge their data from multiple files.

Quote from: F430
I'm asking ... because a lot of mods out there that adds custom audio rely on vanilla sound group .dat files, hardly any of the mods, to my knowledge at least, make new groups [.dat files].
I think that's just modder preference.  It's less work to just use vanilla sounds, but personally I like making new sounds for mods.

Quote from: F430
TL1CP is half-exception with this; it adds its own sound controller, but also modifies stock game data with redundant entries that are already in the custom group, ie. everything the mod adds to SKILLS.DAT is already in SKILLS_TL1CP.DAT as standalone data. There might be a valid reason for it, but that escapes me at the moment.
Lol I just looked in the mod's MEDIA/SOUNDS folder and realized the SKILLS.DAT in there is a leftover file. Probably started putting the custom sound definitions in there, then decided it'd be better to have them off in their own .DAT file (which is defs better). And that's probably my fault (sorry Anarch).



Offline F430

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Re: TL1CP passives
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2018, 03:46:22 AM »
Thanks @Phanjam this is a surprisingly good mix of in-depth and idiot-proof, much obliged.

Also, I have little bit of feedback, nothing really technical or regarding balancing.
One of the T7 Destro skills, can't remember what it was called, seems to be using a somewhat cpu-expensive particle system.
I tried it for a little, it's the one where he shuffles forward and swings the weapon about for a fair bit of damage.
Depending on level/dungeon lighting, fps would drop down to anywhere between 42 and 52, sometimes even lower.
Doesn't happen with any other skills in the pack, or even vanilla, not even with flashy skills like Doomquake or the one you can charge for 2-3 seconds and then it detonates.
Don't know how useful this bit of information is, since I don't know if there are any future plans for TL1CP.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 03:48:10 AM by F430 »

Offline Phanjam

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Re: TL1CP passives
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2018, 05:18:56 AM »
No problem! If my tips were helpful im really happy.

On the feedback, yes thats very helpful thanks. Let's ping @Anarch16sync on this as he is n.ow moderating that mod



Offline F430

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Re: TL1CP passives
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2018, 09:28:46 PM »
Very well. Some more feedback for you and Anarch.

Shadow Bowman skill seems to work 50/50. As expected, the bowman himself does attack targets and his missile reflection bonus also works.
However, there are times when I was able to keep him around beyond his summon duration. I can't give you the exact criteria for reproducing this but it seems to have something to do with warping between levels at a specific "duration remaining" time.
Also, T1 bonus states that he learns a specific skill, but all he seems to do be doing is attacking using a basic bow, no additional skill involved by the looks of it.

Another thing, since we're on the subject of Destroyer.
Spectral Echo, the skill that extends the effective range of weapons seems to work with other types, not just melee. Example being rifles.
I thought it was a case of the affix/status being stuck on the HUD buff list, but it subtracts mana per extra enemies hit and actually does seem to hit more enemies as well.

And lastly, this is a minor thing, but it could be an idea to add a simple piece of info stating that Shadow Armor and Shadow Bowman skills cannot be active at the same time, just like Entropy/Thorns aura skills note that they cannot be used simultaneously.

Offline Anarch16sync

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Re: TL1CP passives
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2018, 09:49:03 PM »
Hi Guys, I just checked here and take note of all the feedback. I'll look into it.

About the bug with Shadow Armor/ Shadow Bowman staying for a long time, I think is a game related issue, It happens with all summons that attach to the player, the ones of the outlander do the same, the alchemist one too. It's hard to reproduce, but it eventually happens.

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