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Author Topic: Roles, Destinies  (Read 10784 times)

Offline Phanjam

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Roles, Destinies
« on: April 05, 2015, 05:05:34 am »
Edit, Sep. 7, 2016

Hi All! I have renamed this thread to "Roles, Destinies" to recognize the amount of work Lolesch has put into his version of the classless character concept.

@lolesch I have also made you a moderator of this forum for the same reason.  I am sure gytfunke will not mind!

(Original post, April 5, 2015)

Hi All!  This is a new sub-forum for discussing a "Classless Character" mod separately from the "Lure of Ember" mod (both concepts from the mind of gytfunke).

@gytfunke , I really hope you don't mind this separation :) as I mentioned before I think the classless char concept is an important one and should be developed.  It's also the same embryonic idea which "Lure of Ember" came from which is a really grand, sweeping TC idea.  I'm just thinking if we "modularized" things first to produce a stable classless character mod, it would help provide this piece of the bigger LoE puzzle.

(some historical posts about the classless concept...)
Spoiler
How the Classless Character idea came about...

... what I would ideally like to do is create an entire overhaul mod that discards the current class and 100 level system for something different.  These are the two ideas I have kicking around in my head:

1) A classless system wherein you can invest in ANY of a number of talent trees that are composed of passive and active skills (much like Dragon Age: Origins).  Investing a skill point into the first tier of a skill tree would unlock the second skill and so forth.  Each skill would have only 1 rank.  So a talent tree might look like this:

Way of the Sword
Talent 1, 'Swordsmanship': Reduces stat requirements when equipping one-handed swords.
Talent 2, 'Blade Expertise': Activate this ability to greatly reduce fumble chance and increase dodge and critical chance, but attack speed is reduced (active).
Talent 3, 'Sword Soul': Increases damage done while wielding a one-handed sword (passive).
Talent 4, 'Lunge': Quickly close the distance to your enemy with a powerful strike that deals extra damage (active).

This system would be excellent for supporting single-player play because of the free-form progression that is allowed by a classless system like this.

The Lure of Ember mod vision...

2)The other idea is a class system with more narrowly defined roles, which would be ideal for a cooperative multiplayer mod where each player has a unique role to fill.  This could be an adventure-style hack n' slash or a competitive MOBA-like (though, I'm not really interested in making a MOBA, something more akin to a fantasy-themed, 3rd person Halo or Tribes).

In this setup classes would have 3-4 active abilities and a few passives.  Progression would be much more limited than in the classless model but would provide a few choices where skill points could be invested.  Again, each passive and active would have only 1 level.  So an example of a passive and active might be something like this:

Class: Swordsman (role: balanced, mobile melee fighter)
Active Ability: 'Lunge' (as above)
Passive Ability1, 'Power Lunge': Your lunges deal more damage.
Passive Ability 2, 'Surprise Lunge': Your lunges gain a chance to stun your targets.

So, the passives would augment the active of your choice and would slightly modify the way you play, but your role would remain relatively static.  Choice might be introduced where one passive must be chosen between two options, the passives being mutually exclusive.  The real focus of this system, again, is to encourage teamwork.  So there might be, aside from the melee fighter, a scout, a tank, a ranged attacker, a support character and a debuffer/debilitator.  No healers, though.  They water down strategy.

Another important point gyt makes about the "invest in any skill" system of the classless char is that it could set the stage for mods to focus on additional content (levels, quests, etc.), rather than mods to add new classes whose skills are really just re-hashes of the same damage variables over and over.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2016, 04:22:19 pm by Phanjam »



Offline lolesch

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Suggestions
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2015, 03:53:55 am »
BEWARE! WALL OF TEXT INCOMMING

Spoiler
First of all: I love the Idea of a full rework on skills!
however there are a few things I dont like about this "classless". Classes are an important thing to identify yourself with. You dont want to play with 4 humans in a team all looking the same and aiming for the highes dps build... It's all about DIVERSITY!
so lets start to evaluate:

What is the challenge?
Killing without getting killed. A progressive play style to get XP and Item rewards for further challenge.

What we got to rule this?
495 attribute points, 131 skill points, 30 skills per class, 15 weapon types and a shield, 12 Item slots, 4 main attributes, 5 damage types, 2 ways to apply (basic attack/spell) a charge system and health regeneration. (this is btw the reason for classes to appear similar...)

So how to get diversity in here?
Lets talk about classes and roles:
- The class is something to preset your starting point in the game with certain class unique powers you can specialize in. (in vanilla it's 5-15 points per attribute, different skills and chargebar boni...)
How to be unique with this low kit?
By combining the chargebar mechanic with the skills. The engineer is a good example, the outlander is a bad one, his skills only benefit passively from the buff. I'd like to see the outlander automatically summon Shadowling Brute when fully charged (1 min last and 3 min cooldown). though i like the 3 skill trees idea to open up some specialisation per class.
- The role is something to preset your main focus on game mechanics with certain role unique powers you can optimize. (the attributes promote "critter" - "caster" - "tank")

How to implement roles into the game?
Leave the 4 stats system and open it up for any viable affix you want to invest in.
Roles should be available for all classes even if the class preset puts them into a certain area.
They could be Item or weapon related so further progress and optimization also means to leave things behind. (Item specialization could be realized by spending attribute points on the preferred weapon type to optimize handling and damage output. (compare scrolls passive boni) )

Back to the Skill issue...  There are some models to go through. I'd prefer a mix of class unique skills and "open" skills which could be passives everyone can benefit from.
Unlocking Skills will stay slaying monster/exp based. its just a question about the path we choose

Player level based (vanilla) using graphs as the main requirement to enable skills and it's 15 level.

Stat point based - IMO to be worth implementing there shouldn't be a skill limit. In case of your "only 4 skills" Idea, if you link them to stat point investment that would mean I've unlocked my 4 skills at ca. lvl 10 and then running around spending statpoints here and there with no reward then the affixes OR I have to wait for level 20 to finally unlock my second skill...

Tree based - easy implemented through Player Editor there you can set a required Skill for each Skill the player "knows". this opens up different paths to go deeper. lets say each level i can choose between 2 skills, most of them have to be passives to gain a slight bonus into 1 or another direction (by adding a stat and having a passive skill using a stat counter for the effect level/stat percent to currently use)

Something in between: Lets say you have a starting skill surrounded by others and its based on where you spend your attribute points to to unlock another skill. These can be single instance castable skills or "modifier" skills to edit the damagetype, range, cooldown etc. So we come up with a serious Skill map mainly with passive increments to active skills or atributes controlled by the way you invest these Attribute points. My suggestion on this would be to rework the existing 4.

To keep this open to other mods I suggest creating a new attribute system that conveys the "old" stats into the new ones so every existing class can be implemented (lets say 35%str+60%Foc=X% of a new Attribute. New attributes could include the 5 damage types or other boni like melee/range, 1h/2h weapons etc.)

...and there is health regeneration! Tho GOD under the effects. Sure you can stack your resistances but they won't heal you ;)


*btw isnt that blasphemy creating an "anti-synergies" mod?  8)
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 02:35:34 pm by lolesch »
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Offline Kva3imoda

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Re: Introduction
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2015, 04:28:33 am »
Interesting idea of passive skills in Grim Down:
Devotion
http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25907

Spoiler

Offline Phanjam

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Re: Introduction
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2015, 02:28:31 pm »
I still believe that a "classless" character is a good idea because you can build it any way you want. But I see the point about classes being a helpful "pre-build" for players. So maybe the whole structure of "what is a class" can also be re-imagined...

As Lolesch reminds us, right now a class is a pre-set collection of stats (same stats but at different levels for each class) and 30 skills unique to that class.  Since in my imagination I already see both a "giant skill tree" idea and an "attributes system" (expanded form of stats) idea, which are the same for all characters/classes, my thinking about "what is a class" is something like a "limiter/enhancer" of the attributes.

Something like...

A "Warrior" class gets more increase-in-damage out of 1 point in the "Strength" attribute than any other class, but gets the least increase-in-damage out of 1 point in the "Magic" attribute.  A "Mage" class would be the reverse.  So if you like melee, you would appreciate the Warrior class because it increases in melee damage faster than any other class, not because it has a lot of melee-based skills.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 02:33:03 pm by Phanjam »



Offline lolesch

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what is a "class"?
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2015, 07:16:51 pm »
BEWARE! ANOTHER WALL OF TEXT INCOMMING
Spoiler
Aiming for a new system - how to build Hero's any way you want:

Q: What does that affect?
A: No class bound skills anymore (though we could talk about skill requirements - skill tree - how to unlock skills)

Q: So what to "pre-set" through character select?
A: Choose a class "Destiny" with unique charge bar and attribute modifiers (maybe unique attributes?). These Attributes will grow faster then others.

Q: How do I progress/level up?
A: Progression now comes from your "Abilities" - not from monster slaying. Blocking attacks increase the block chance. Getting hit increase your Damage reduction. Using skills increase your mana regen... Example:
- Using two pistols or wands and basic attacks will increase:
1. missile range bonus 2. attack speed 3. critical chance 4. execute chance
- Using a Claw and Shield and melee AoE skills will increase:
1. damage by monster count 2. cast speed and mana recharge 3. block chance 4. splash damage
After reaching a breakpoint the force gets increased. Progression should feel dynamic to your heroes playstile. Reach 4 ability increments to level up your Hero.

(Alternative: each increment grants a point to specialize the ability. Example to invest in:
Blocking now heals you for x% HP or
Blocking also inflicts x damage or
Blocking grants a short boost of attack speed)


Q: What do I get from a level up?
A: On a level up your basic attributes (HP, Mana, Speed??, Armor, Damage) are passively increased (BaseValue + X*PlayerLevel) and you gain 1 point to spend in the passive tree. All other attributes must be increased by the passive tree or items.

Q: What is the passive tree?
A: This is the place to specialize your Hero. You can boost  or transform abilities, unlock and improve skills and basicAttackModifiers, gain weapon handle bonuses, specialize in elemental effects, all the funky stuff!

Q: Won't this promote Cookie Cutter builds?
A: Yes and No! Since progression doesn't comes from Exp per minute, high damage builds won't level up faster. For example a tank with less damage stacks more hits per monster then a glass cannon who one-shotted mobs but the tank kills less enemies per minute so they might end up with the same count of enemy hits. This will be hard to balance - though I think it's possible!
And in the end this mod is made for multiplayer and strategy - there should be a lot of viable build combinations!

Here is a first categorization of "roles" you can fulfill: (additive!)

role                   relies on                benefits from           downside                     Level Up
Melee                 close combat            mon.Count/CC??       vulnerable by missiles     use melee weapon
Ranger               kite/distance            dodge/rangeBonus     vulnerable by hits           use ranged weapon

Fighter               Basic Attacks           attackSpeed/???         less skill power               hit with basic attack
Caster                Skill Spam               castSpeed/mana         relies on mana               spells used
Summoner         Minions/corpses       MinionModifiers           relies on shared HP        minions killed foes/HP shared
(Support)           Aura/Heals               Ally/MonsterCount      low DMG                        healing done?

Tank                  be resistant              DR/Armor/Reflect       less DMG/slow               got hit/damage taken??
- SafetyFirst       sustain                     missileRefl/block         less DMG                       block
Carry                  massive DMG           Crit/degradeArmor      fragile                           critical hits
- SingleTarget     burst target              Execute/fumbChan    bad for mobs                 execute/dual wield
- AreaOfEffect     target Area               Splash/fumbPenal      bad for bosses               splash/"single wield"

Anything you miss?


To be continued...
* clarify Attributes and boosted Abilities
* Item rework
   - weight?
   - Stats on Items only
* Monster rework
* Corruption System
* Economy
   - Crafting
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Offline Phanjam

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Re: what is a "class"?
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2015, 03:10:07 pm »
A: Choose a Class/Destiny with unique charge bar and attribute modifiers (maybe unique attributes?). These Attributes will grow faster then others.
Oh I LIKE this idea of "choosing charge bars" = "choosing a class"!



Offline lolesch

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Re: Introduction
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2015, 03:14:12 pm »
@Phanjam @gytfunke
I know you'r not actively working on this Idea... Though I want to focus on it and I need to know about your impressions on my last post.
Gyt, do you thing the changed "experience" could be realized? I thought of triggerables... And i thought about to remove the level cap but using a quadratic funktion so after "endgamelevel" it will take you twice as long to increase something each time - rewarding for people who invest alot of love into their character
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Offline gytfunke

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Re: Introduction
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2015, 04:27:17 pm »
Spoiler
Hey lolesch,

Yes.  You could easily™ implement a 'train to gain' type experience system like you described.  It won't work with the vanilla respec option, but you could make something manually.

I would recommend making it kill-based rather than hit-based.  Hit-based means that it actually favors tanks a lot more because you can get more xp from fewer monsters.  Kill-based means everyone gets the same xp for clearing an area.  If it takes the tank longer to do so, maybe we need to rebalance the tank-type character so his average clear time is roughly the same as the glass cannon... or just let him be and let party mechanics make up for it (that is, the tank's xp gain will be fine when in a group).

That's the other thing.  A character who kills monsters with a fast, repeating skill (Magma Spear) instead of big, single hits (Infernal Collapse) is going to get more xp (and faster) in a hit-based system.  They'll get the same in a kill-based system.

It also affects multiplayer.  If a tank and a glass cannon are playing together in a party, the xp will need to be shared somehow for the tank to get an even share of the xp.  Consider: ranged glass cannons can probably pop popcorn mobs long before a tank could reach them.

And here's how I'd set it up. For weapon skills, use hidden passives attached to the player unit file.  Passive skills can be given weapon requirements.  You can then use the passive to set a bool that indicates the player is using the given weapon setup and use that bool in a statwatcher for another skill that grants 'experience' to the current weapon setup's unique experience pool.  The following is a rough example and may need modifications to function:

Equipped Weapon - Sword and Board:
-Is a hidden passive attached to the player
-Requires a sword in the right hand, shield in the left.
-On Event_Start it sets the player's stat "weapon_equipped_swordnboard" to 1.
-On Event_End it sets "weapon_equipped_swordnboard" to 0.
-That's it.  But you'd want one skill for each possible weapon setup.  The bonus to this is that you can use the bool "weapon_equipped_swordnboard" to modify lots of other skills and effects if you like.

Experience Trigger -
-Is a Triggerable attached to the character via a hidden passive skill (see the Friendly Charge Bar Passives Tut for why you want to do it this way)
-Its condition is KILL and Filter Self is false (I believe this should then trigger whenever anyone gets a kill).  If you can set Unit Type here, set it to Friend.
-This triggerable will case the Experience skill

Experience -
-Is a hidden active proc skill enabled on the player unit
-On Event_Start it tries to apply multiple affixes, one for each possible weapon setup.  Each affix is gated with a Statwatcher that requires the correct "weapon_equipped_" stat.  In this case we want "weapon_equipped_swordnboard".
-The affix it applies should have an effect that adds 1 to the stat we want, in this case "experience_swordnboard".  We want this stat to be permanent, so set 'saves' to true.



Okay, so now we need to add something that will give the player a bonus.  There's a couple ways you could do this.  You could give them a set bonus for achieving a certain amount of experience with a weapon.  So, if "experience_swordnboard" is greater than 100, you get +5% melee damage.  That's pretty good. 

You could also award the players points which they can spend on swordnboard specific bonuses, then give them options.  This takes a lot more work than the set bonuses, but I think it makes it a more robust RPG element.

For this second option you could have 3 tier-1 passive skill offerings selectable in a modified skill window.  They could be SwordnBoard Damage (+5% physical damage), SwordnBoard Block (+2% block), SwordnBoard Speed (+2% attack speed).  Of course, with better names.

I'd probably use the UI for this.  It'd be easier.  So:

LevelUp -
-I'd probably add this to the HUD, since it's always on.
-You'll need to create a logic group for every possible weapon setup and every available levelup tier.  Lots of stuff!  But you'd have to do the same with skills, so this is less work and can be easily copypasta'd.
-Set up a logic group that contains the following elements.
-Start with a timer that initiates the logic every ~1 second or so.
-Use a Stat Evaluator for "experience_swordnboard".  Compare it to your threshold, maybe stat>100
-Use a Stat Evaluator for "swordnboard_tier1_awarded".  This will turn off the logic reward after it's been given once.
-Use a Stat Operator to give both "swordnboard_tier1_awarded" and "swordnboard_skillpoint".
-"...awarded" of course turns off the loop.  "...skillpoint" will of course allow you to buy a passive skill in the skill tree.

As for the skill tree.... I imagine that once you choose a Tier 1 skill you can design the system in one of two ways.  1)The other T1 options are locked and the next level you have to choose a T2 option.  2)The T2 options unlock but you can still buy a T1 option the next time you earn a skill point.

The purchasable passive skills would be really easy to create since they have no levels and will only have an Event_Start that applies the affix and an Event_End that removes it.



So, yes, I'm certain you can craft your alternate experience path.  You won't be able to use graphs (and likely no quadratic functions).  You'll have to input the thresholds manually with this method.  Are there other ways to implement your system?  Maybe.  Could we use the existing skill points and stat points and therefore the experience graph?  Yes, I think so, but not in this implementation.  It would require a dual xp system, one where you earn the points by leveling up as normal, but then you have to have the requisite skill points with a weapon style or other skill before you can invest in a bonus passive in that skill line.

The implementation I've outlined here would allow a character to learn ALL the skills and become a master of all trades (a la Skyrim).  It also works regardless of player level but I'm not sure this is a problem.  If we leave the current xp system in (and just gut the bonuses it provides) characters will still level up.  And I think the KILL trigger condition requires you to kill an enemy near your level (something that awards xp).

Offline lolesch

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Re: Introduction
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2015, 05:22:48 pm »
Oh thank you Gyt! this includes some links i was missing... now I can start to mod it...

some questions
-The Tank wont kill that fast but the ranger wont be hit as often. As being hit grants "exp" too this might balance the lack of kills/hits. At least in theory...
-Could you point out how the current exp works? Monsters have the XP value and the EXP-Graph will give more exp based on the player level? but where do i find the actual mechanic "Kill = exp to player"? and how can i shut it down... monster kills might be part of the new system but first I dont want to gain exp at all
-Using your path I apply countable stats to my player. couldnt the bonus be graphbased? i read something about stats controlled by graphs.. cant remember the bigger topic there

ok, I'm off modding :D


EDIT:
Oh I LIKE this idea of "choosing charge bars" = "choosing a class"!
Is this possible ingame or do I have to create a class per charge bar for the character select
« Last Edit: November 18, 2015, 07:05:07 pm by lolesch »
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Offline gytfunke

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Re: Introduction
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2015, 09:24:51 pm »
Hey lolesch,

Will the tank average the same kills/hour as the ranger?  That's an arbitrary ratio, but it's more what I'd be interested in.  The ranger might kill faster, but require some form of downtime.  Perhaps the tank doesn't require any down time to make up for their longer time/kill.  The tank could also have an evasive move option that self-buffs damage or deals damage to enemies whereas the ranger's evasive move could deal 0 damage and maybe cost more mana or somesuch.  There's ways to balance the kills/hour ratio.

But, if you want to go with xp/action rather than xp/kill you can.  Triggerables have GotHit, Crit, Block, Dodge, etc and you can use all of those to add to your custom xp stat.




To shut down xp gain, if you want to do that, you could do a number of things.  Easiest I can think of is there's a multiplier based on the difference in level value between the player and the monster it just killed.  It's a graph.  Set that graph to 0 for all options and it should multiply all xp gain by 0.


You can certainly choose a charge bar after character creation, say from a skill tree.  Just use a purchasable passive skill that gives a bonus that's modified by charge (or only activates at max charge, or depletes with higher charge, whatever).  You could also have the passive skill set a custom stat that a) locks all other charge bar skills (if you want) and b) changes the UI image of your charge bar.

Offline lolesch

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Re: Introduction
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2015, 09:33:02 pm »
helpful as ever! I'm working on it and hopefully I get something to run till the WE. I already got some more questions but I'll first trial and error to separate the real questions from laziness!
Till then :D
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Offline lolesch

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Re: Introduction
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2015, 10:51:14 pm »
New problem with the LevelUp mechanic:
I got everything working, stats are applied and counted. After 4 progressions (no matter what) I want a "LevelUp".
I added an Operator with the DyStat "CURRENT PLAYER SKILL POINTS".
It's applied as well but I cant spend it!
So I did some research and found out the Skillmenu Blink uses a static Stat called "PLAYER SKILL PTS TO SPEND" so I created a dynamic stat with that name and PredefinedInt.
This one doesn't even show up in the Effect viewer...

Too bad there is no "Character Level" stat.
The current levelup is only defined through the experienceGate graph, right?
But where is the Levelup located? where can I find something like:
Evaluate Exp true -> operate add Player level and play levelup layout?

I've found another stat "EXPERIENCE LEVEL" not sure where it is used...
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 01:21:52 am by lolesch »
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Offline gytfunke

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Re: Introduction
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2015, 12:46:18 am »
I believe levelups are largely not modifiable via GUTS.  I may be wrong.  I would suggest searching through this list for corresponding stat: http://docs.runicgames.com/wiki/Static_Stats

Something like:

"PLAYER SKILL PTS TO SPEND"

Offline lolesch

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Back to the topic!
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2015, 05:59:30 am »
WALL OF TEXT - don't say you'd expected different

Back to the topic!
Theory crafting - this time I want to discus the RPG factor in relation to a classless system:

What are the core RolePlayGame elements?
Assume the role of a character and take responsibility of acting through a narrative story. In a system of rules development will improve your characters progress and decision making determines the outcome.

So what does that mean for an upcoming classless system?
The way I've understood the main opinion in here is to leave out the character differences to open up the possible skillset to everyone. When I'm right with my imagination this will
- Either reduce the skillset to somewhat like a categorical system where you only have 1 skill for each type, i.e.:
cast something that hits close enemies with a melee animation
cast something to perform a ranged attack from your weapon
cast things falling from the sky
summon something that helps you
cast something to buff a stat like damage or speed over time
Simple things everyone could take use of but with no variation or diversity inside a category
- Or end up in a confusing flood of various skills for one and the same thing but with slight differences, i.e.:
choose between a summoned zombie or a bat. zombies might hit harder but slower...
cast fire or ice bolts from the sky, fire to fear foes, ice to stun them...
choose between a melee animated skill that knocks back or one that interrupt or one that grants more charge or one that just looks more powerful cuz it shrinks enemies and let them glow green...

What I mean is that its hard to balance a classless system where a Summoner feels as comfortable with the skill collection as a ranged basic attack using Hunter without having only 4 skills for that kind of Role.

Personal thoughts:
To be clear I still aim for a classless system but this has to be defined.
For the moment I imagine something like a mix of PoE's "skill map" and D3's runes. The center of that map is surrounded by categorized skill sets - left you will find some berserk melee stuff, opposite you find the range skills. tankiness, summons, magics, illusions, whatever you might create, we place it in a location to fit the composition (bad though for adding stuff and skill extending mods).
Next to those main skills you get tons of passive modifiers - get this when that, do more this after that every X time, turn your melee attacks into Y damagetype, transform your StatA into StatB while in combat, etc. - this way active skills could get improved in different ways.
EDIT* quoting Kva3imoda: Interesting idea of passive skills in Grim Down:
what reminds me somehow of Skyrim
Skills could be more weapon related and make these more unique and another important decision - you won't be able so spam ranged skills with a claw etc.

Pros:
Decision making and development
diversity
modify skills to fit your playstyle

Cons:
development expansive
could get confusing (PoE)
this might get skill/class mods hard to integrate (what could be a pro cuz ppl focus more on other content to mod on)

Well I think you got the point.
let me know how you think about all that and the RPG components.
what skill categories you could think of and how would you like to opt out your character?

lolesch
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 06:14:51 am by lolesch »
some projects in progress

Offline Phanjam

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Re: Introduction
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2015, 01:13:37 pm »
Hi Lolesch! About skill types, here's some skill planning stuff Gytfunke and i were toying with some time ago...

https://coggle.it/diagram/VF296oSv-uE4XbGs#/28

Im on my phone so i havnt checkd yet if this link is accessible to all. Will check when i get home ;)

EDIT:
Updated the link above to make it publicly viewable.  You can make a copy of it if you want (you'll need to make a coggle account tho)
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 11:39:57 pm by Phanjam »



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