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Author Topic: Need 2H Weapon Affix Bonuses Structure Suggestions/Ideas  (Read 3143 times)

Offline RnF

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Need 2H Weapon Affix Bonuses Structure Suggestions/Ideas
« on: September 05, 2014, 08:43:34 pm »
Been mulling around some ideas on how to do 2H weapon affixes.  In LAO I did Option 1.  I like it but it may not be enough to even the playing field.  Some affixes may not stack on 2H weapons to give the same values as 2x1H

Option 1
Same bonuses as 1H weapons but double the number of affixes
- example a 1H sword can have 3 affixes, a 2H sword can have 6 affixes

Option 2
Same number of affixes but double the bonus amount of each affix
- example a 1H sword will have +10% to crit, a 2H sword would have +20% to crit

Option 3
Somewhere in between
- example a 1H sword will have 3 affix bonuses, example of +10% crit
- example a 2H sword would have 4 or 5 affixes but 50% more value per affix, example of +15% crit

Thoughts?

Offline Wolven

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Re: Need 2H Weapon Affix Bonuses Structure Suggestions/Ideas
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2014, 09:30:27 pm »
Just a thought. 2H weapons already have greater damage, arch, rang and dmg to secondary targets. So in my view, doubling the affixes or bonus will make it imbalanced compared to 1H. So I vote for option 3.

If 2H are still weak compared to 2x1H with option 3. Perhaps a static bonus could be added to all 2H weapons. Like all shields have 40% knock-back resistance. Maybe the 2H weapons could have something similar.

Edit: How about the soak scale, set it to ignore some of the armor for 2H weapons.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2014, 11:27:08 pm by Wolven »

Offline gytfunke

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Re: Need 2H Weapon Affix Bonuses Structure Suggestions/Ideas
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2014, 12:43:39 am »
RnF,

I'm looking for some elucidation.  So, let me give my opinion on the matter and if I'm missing any important information, lemme know.

Is dual-wielding that superior to greatweapons in Vanilla TL2?  I've not gotten to high levels so I don't know about later-level play, but I always found a single, very fast main-hand or a big slow two-hander to be my preferred weapon setups.  I always kinda thought dual-wielding sucked (y'know, up to level 20).

Someone reverse engineered the damage calcs and showed that dual-wielding gets kicked in the nuts when it comes to calculating DPS, too.  It averages the DPS between the two weapons.  While this doesn't matter so much if you have TWO good weapons, it does require you to have TWO good weapons just to equal the DPS of ONE good weapon.  Why bother dual-wielding if you don't get added DPS?  Sword and board gives you the same DPS and then Block to top it off (which is huge).

I bring this up because the real beast in vanilla seems to be sword and board because the superior DPS scaling one-handers get from flat damage gems and affixes combined with the huge defensive benefits you get from block.

Now, we're redoing the stats and removing both dodge AND block bonuses from primary player stats.  So, sword and board is going to take a huge hit in power.  The block chance is going to be capped by item bonuses, spells and skills.

We can now control the difference in power between these three loadout options.  Especially if we remove flat damage affixes and replace them with percent damage affixes across the board.  The flat damage affixes and embers caused power creep that favored one handers because their faster weapon speed.  Erase those and they're not an issue.

So, as it is now, with the overhaul you're doing (and assuming you remove flat damage bonuses), we have this situation:

--Sword and board gets 2 items worth of affixes and 100% dps.  AND some defense from a shield.

--Dual wielding gets 2 items worth of affixes and 100% dps.  And a little extra DPS from execute which is now a stat they have to gear for.

--Greatweapons get 1 item worth of affixes and ~150% dps (or however high you set it).  And, like wolven said, greater arc, secondary damage and range.  And higher base damage, but that'll be unimportant if you change out flat armor for percent damage reduction.

On paper, I think having double the weapon affixes when dual-wielding helps to make it pretty much equal to using a greatweapon that only gets 1 item worth of affixes.  Also, dual-wielding doesn't have 100% more affixes than two-handers.  I think we have to count all the affixes a character can have on their armor as well. 

You have 12 item slots total, but the armor and jewelry slots don't get as many or as good of affixes as the weapons, so let's count them for 1/2 (this is a total guess, if you know the actual ratio, I'd love to know it).  So you have 7 'weapons' worth of affixes if you use two one-handers or sword and board, or you have 6 'weapons' worth of affixes.  If this is all correct, then it's more like a character using two-handers has 15% less affix value than one who's dual-wielding.

What I suggest is proceeding with caution for the moment.  With all the other changes you're making to items and stats, the problems with greatweapons may have already been sorted out.

If you find that they have not been sorted out, then I would suggest either adding just a couple affixes or increasing the 2-handers' base weapon damage to make up the difference.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 01:04:51 am by gytfunke »

Offline RnF

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Re: Need 2H Weapon Affix Bonuses Structure Suggestions/Ideas
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2014, 04:06:36 am »
gytfunke - the voice of reason.

I put this out because I know I went a bit over the top with my LAO mod, it's going to be a bit until I can actually make these changes.  So starting a discussion now will hopefully reduce work later on.

I think I will take your advice and wait for further changes with 2H's until the stat changes are in place.  Then we can get a better feel for the weapons.

The only change I have made so far to 2H's is a 20% increase with the rarity damage compared to 1H's and the ability for more sockets.  All can be very easily changed at any time.

I am designing this mod to be adjusted with out too much effort knowing things are going to need to be changed.  So making changes won't be all the hard if I need too.  Of course I would rather get it right the first time.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 04:35:53 am by RnF »

Offline gytfunke

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Re: Need 2H Weapon Affix Bonuses Structure Suggestions/Ideas
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2014, 05:42:39 am »
gytfunke - the voice of reason.

And here I was worried my ranting was coming off as insane.

Offline Salan

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Re: Need 2H Weapon Affix Bonuses Structure Suggestions/Ideas
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2014, 10:15:05 am »

So, as it is now, with the overhaul you're doing (and assuming you remove flat damage bonuses), we have this situation:

--Sword and board gets 2 items worth of affixes and 100% dps.  AND some defense from a shield.

--Dual wielding gets 2 items worth of affixes and 100% dps.  And a little extra DPS from execute which is now a stat they have to gear for.

--Greatweapons get 1 item worth of affixes and ~150% dps (or however high you set it).  And, like wolven said, greater arc, secondary damage and range.  And higher base damage, but that'll be unimportant if you change out flat armor for percent damage reduction.

On paper, I think having double the weapon affixes when dual-wielding helps to make it pretty much equal to using a greatweapon that only gets 1 item worth of affixes.  Also, dual-wielding doesn't have 100% more affixes than two-handers.  I think we have to count all the affixes a character can have on their armor as well. 

You have 12 item slots total, but the armor and jewelry slots don't get as many or as good of affixes as the weapons, so let's count them for 1/2 (this is a total guess, if you know the actual ratio, I'd love to know it).  So you have 7 'weapons' worth of affixes if you use two one-handers or sword and board, or you have 6 'weapons' worth of affixes.  If this is all correct, then it's more like a character using two-handers has 15% less affix value than one who's dual-wielding.


The only issue with counting armor affixes is that all 3 weapon styles get the same amount of armor affixes, so your still back to the differences being the weapons.   

In synergies I made the 2handers have a higher rarity modifier to account for the loss of affixes, and the uselessness of heavy hitting 2handers with DPS using skills.  (not completely useless but not as good as 1hander/dual wield in DPS skills vs WEAPON DAMAGE skills)

There are good weapon damage skills out there as well which negate that argument but back to ... rarity modifier.

For what I have seen and the feedback I have gotten on this it worked well for me, the extra affixes and the way dual wielding works is huge detriment to two handed weapons in vanilla TL2 unless you find a good 'weapon damage' skill.

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